Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 6: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.60 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets___???

Is Hero better off jamming to try to knock out the probable pair of Kings, or calling and hoping he comes along?

Hero raised and the K folded.

Remainder of hand:

5th Street - (5.30 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (7.30 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (9.30 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (11.30 BB)

Should Hero find a fold on 5th or 6th?

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

I'm assuming this game is on the tight side, so I'd prefer a call on fourth hoping that the King comes along for the ride. If this were CP $30/60, I'd jam and hope that the King came along for the ride. I don't think you can fold at any point. Hope you escaped.

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

I'm in favor of just calling 4th. 5th I'd have to peel even though the cards came down lousy.

Once I catch the 2 on 6th I'm showing it down.

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is Hero better off jamming to try to knock out the probable pair of Kings, or calling and hoping he comes along?

[/ QUOTE ] The kings aren't what you should be specifically concerned with on 4th. The suited baby for the bringin isn't a good card for you. Granted, he's the bringin, and he did just call the raise (and clubs are quite dead), so you're probably ahead of him - given that I like the jam - not because we specifically want to punish the kings, but because we're less concerned than we normally should be about the bringin's hand - and we can both punish the king and the likely inferior low hand of the bringin.


[ QUOTE ]
Should Hero find a fold on 5th or 6th?

[/ QUOTE ] No, one of the side effect/benefits/consequences of jamming early is that it ties you on a bit more than normal - you have reasonable calls on 5th and 6th. Now 7th street is interesting - it may not initially appear as a super spot, but that 9 is a very good card for you, and if I had seen any donking/fishy tendencies from this bringin player previously I may very well raise there - I can see an occasional scoop and very little chances of getting scooped ourselves.

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

On my blog, one player suggested just checking behind on 4th because:

-- I don't have the ace
-- My pairing cards are somewhat dead
-- It is easier to get away from a brick on 5th by keeping the pot small.
-- There is only one high hand in the pot

What do you guys think of this line of reasoning?

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

[ QUOTE ]
On my blog, one player suggested just checking behind on 4th because:

-- I don't have the ace
-- My pairing cards are somewhat dead
-- It is easier to get away from a brick on 5th by keeping the pot small.
-- There is only one high hand in the pot

What do you guys think of this line of reasoning?

[/ QUOTE ]

In hindsight it seems ok but at the table I think betting it still better. I take Seat 4's check as having a genuinely weak hand; I certainly don't expect him to c/r. Seems you're the most likely to bet in this spot and if he check-raises here it's only to get more money in the pot since it's not facing anyone with 2 bets to knock anyone out.

So he must really like his hand, but can he really be that much further ahead of his opponents? If he's got two small clubs so be it. I think an interesting problem would be if it did check around on 4th (let's say KQ open-folded) and the cards came down as they did on 5th. Would it still be a call with the smaller pot?

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

Checking 4th here is absolutely absurd. If your low draw was open ended or lower like 2346 I would jam 4th 100%. As is it I would probably jam and call somewhat evenly. It's been so long since I put in a lot of Stud 8 hands but this looks like it might be one of those situations where the 2 low hands jamming it against a high hand are just punishing themselves and putting the dollars in when the high hand has the best equity. Your gutshot may help you enough to not make this the case though.

This might be one of those rare situations where you can actually fold a made low on 6th or 7th as well. I wouldn't, but if someone did I would probably tell them they played it better than I would have. Luckily you ended up catching the 9 on the river so you have to show down but if you hadn't improved folding would probably be the right play. Also please don't raise this river, it is really easy to be scooped here.

Re: Low gutshot on 4th in a $10/$20 game
 

It would never in a million years occur to me to check fourth street.

[ QUOTE ]
-- I don't have the ace

[/ QUOTE ]

So freaking what? KKK6 doesn't have an Ace either. Am I supposed to check that too?

[ QUOTE ]

-- My pairing cards are somewhat dead

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not really hoping to make a pair with this hand.

[ QUOTE ]

-- It is easier to get away from a brick on 5th by keeping the pot small.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are we looking for reasons to get away from this hand? I'm seeing the river most of the time here. Aren't you?

[ QUOTE ]
-- There is only one high hand in the pot

[/ QUOTE ]

So there is. I don't see how this leads to a check.