60-120 hand
 

Good player told me I did the wrong thing on the river in this hand, so here it is.

Folded around to me on the button, I raise with 9-9. Small blind folds and big blind--a relatively tight but somewhat imaginative and probably small winnning player who often plays 100-200--3 bets. I'm having a big day and have lots of chips in front of me. She's has just come from the must move game and appears to be about even on the day and in normal mood. I call.

Flop comes T-4-2 rainbow. She checks, I bet, she check-raises, I 3-bet, she 4-bets, I 5-bet, she 6-bets, I gulp, blink, frown, grimace and call.

Turn is a 9, which is how I got lots of chips in front of me. She bets, I raise, she calls quickly in rhythm.

River is an Ace. She checks quickly.

Bet five knuckles or $120? Comments on other streets appreccated as well.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I've never played 60-120, but I like

pre: What's her range for that raise preflop ? If she's really tight I like calling the 3bet. But if her range includes hands like AQ, KJs, ATs, 77, etc... then I think I like going 4 bets preflop.

flop: I could never 5 bet the flop with no redraw based on the description of the player. Seems like you also get into less betting here if you go 4 preflop and she goes 5.

turn: good street, and now her hand is down to probably KK and AA and sometimes QQ

river: I really want to say bet/call given the pot size. Would she call the river with KK/QQ when an A hits ? if the answer is yes then it's a pretty easy bet/call for me.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Flop is spewing. After 3 bets its time to call and hit a 2 outer on the turn.

Turn: expert turn card

River: Well we have 4th nut. Sounds like villain is a decent enough player to realize that you have set. In order to bet the river our hand has to be good 50% of the time when we get called. Is she paying you off with jj, qq, or kk?

When I started this part I was in favor of a bet. I like a check. There might be a little value here in a bet, but not much. We get paid off very infrequently and 2 bet every time by hands that crush us.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Turn action eliminates possibility of villain having TT, IMHO. Although it is possible she has AA, I would put the collective range of [KK/QQ/44/22] as being much more likely than AA. Bet and expect a fold (KK/QQ) or a snap-call/muck (44/22). b/f is expert against some players (maybe this villain, maybe not) since your body language puts you on exactly 99.

BTW, did you really gulp, blink, frown & grimace?

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Hey Andy,

Bet the river, by this time time she has you on 10 10 and is frustrated you out flopped her, she's not going to let her river set get checked through.

Bet and expect her to agonize over it and call, she has KK (most likely) or QQ.

Too bad you couldn't get another 9 on the river [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Jim

Re: 60-120 hand
 

The flop seems a little bit spewy to me.

I bet the river as played

Re: 60-120 hand
 

you better have some type of disgusting read on this chic to put in that 5th bet... maybe and I mean MAYBE if the cards were marked and I KNEW she only had AK, AQ, or AJ, or 88 would I put in 5 bets here :-)

BTW... I really like the 3 bet on the flop, the answered prayer on the turn, and I think you bet the river...

I'm going to have to laugh out loud a bit if you did in fact bet the river, she C/R, and turned over 3-5 SUITED.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

BTW... don't you think it's funny how only a few years back 60-120 would have been the BIG game at any Vegas casino... now it's just mid-limit... ha ha ha...

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I would never 5-bet the flop, and only sometimes 3-bet it. This seems way over-the-top.

I'd always bet the river. Is she really risking checking AAA on the river after all this action and the ultimate scare card arriving? I suppose she could be leveling you, but I think it's much more likely that she has a smaller set or JJ-KK.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Seems like there is a lot of hate in this thread. Let me shift the focus.

I LOVE the turn play, Andy. Expert in every way.

I'm guessing you bet, and your friend said you should check since s/he thinks there's little or no value in it (KK, QQ, JJ may not pay off, AA costs you two bets). Thing is, BB may have AT (twice as likely as AA!!!!). And, you say it's an imaginitive player in the BB, so....as an imaginitive player myself, there could be MANY hands BB has.

So, you bet the river, and even though your friend says it was bad, I LOVE IT. And, you called the checkraise, and I still love that!

I love you, AndyFox!

J

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Why on earth did you do that on the flop? Players like you describe who 3bet preflop from the big blind then checkraise the flop have AA every time. Unless I'm reading the hand wrong what could she possibly be checking there that you beat? Bet-call and I'm pretty sure I've checked behind in spots like that before.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Oh, and bet the river and call a checkraise.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes T-4-2 rainbow. She checks, I bet, she check-raises, I 3-bet, she 4-bets, I 5-bet, she 6-bets, I gulp, blink, frown, grimace and call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf? I thought you were described as nitty...

If she has AA and has put you on TT, a river c/r is pretty hawt... I'm going to say two thumbs up for villain.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Andy,

I love your posts like most everyone here, but I can't help thinking that if some dude with 6 posts put up this hand he would get berated and dismissed for this flop play. I wait eagerly for your defense [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also no one has mentioned 44/22 as possible hands for villain. I'd bet the river. I guess you have to call a c/r vs an imaginitive player but I would really hate doing so.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Andy,

I love your posts like most everyone here, but I can't help thinking that if some dude with 6 posts put up this hand he would get berated and dismissed for this flop play. I wait eagerly for your defense [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Also no one has mentioned 44/22 as possible hands for villain. I'd bet the river. I guess you have to call a c/r vs an imaginitive player but I would really hate doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

na she goes for more bets on the turn with 44-22 I think. maybe not since the flop was so insane. But I would !

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
maybe not since the flop was so insane. But I would !

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a total spew imo.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe not since the flop was so insane. But I would !

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be a total spew imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

second set going 3 bets on the turn in a blind defense battle ? No it's not. The 5 bet range on the flop here is a lot bigger then exactly TT...

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth did you do that on the flop? Players like you describe who 3bet preflop from the big blind then checkraise the flop have AA every time. Unless I'm reading the hand wrong what could she possibly be checking there that you beat? Bet-call and I'm pretty sure I've checked behind in spots like that before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this hand was played in So. Cal. in which case the flop play should be considered standard, if not somewhat restrained. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
The 5 bet range on the flop here is a lot bigger then exactly TT...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, that's not the point tho. You were saying that you put in more bets with 44/22 as villain on turn.

so you 6bet the flop, and your opponent now raises you on the turn, and you have 44/22. at this point you should not be thinking about 3 betting unless you are against a maniac. I would be open to an argument for 3betting and folding to a cap, but I dont think that's what you were suggesting.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

pf: I 4-bet

f: I guess this is sort of the alternate to 4-betting pf... waiting for a non-terrible flop and then dispensing chips. it's a bit odd to see, but I'm guessing it made sense in person.

t: perfect:

r: bet/call.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I think the optimal play is to bet/fold the river (how often is she checkraising without AA? Never; the pot is protected, Andy's "never folding," and given her read she isn't maniacal). But this might be a case where I wouldn't take the optimal play -- I might check behind because the emotional ownership of not letting a player get any bets in when they river a set is pretty awesome.

The absolute worse case scenario is you lose out on 1BB if she would have cry-called a river bet. I don't see any cases where you miss out on 2BBs by checking.

In a vacuum I agree that the flop looks spewy, but I trust that you knew what you were doing.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

"the flop looks spewy, but I trust that you knew what you were doing.

The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be- and when they're not, we cry.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I always liked you, no matter what anybody else says.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I remember when the biggest game in a 35 table club was 15-30 lowball with only two betting rounds. Then again, I used to date Benjamin Franklin's great-aunt. Zee was seeing her older sister.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

"did you really gulp, blink, frown & grimace?"

No, I gulped, blinked, grimaced and frowned. I changed the order for literary reasons.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Agree with PJ though in practice nobody bet/folds here even though calling a checkraise is just lighting around $119 on fire.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 60-120 hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
"the flop looks spewy, but I trust that you knew what you were doing.

The key is to get to know people and trust them to be who they are. Instead, we trust people to be who we want them to be- and when they're not, we cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is fabulous quote Andy.

However, people are being way to nice to you about the flop play....

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I agree. Two bets--at least--too many.

People are nice to me on this forum. Thank goodness David doesn't visit here any more.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Andy,

It looks like you let her get you into a dick measuring contest on the flop and hers was bigger. After all, this is the commerce. You said we weren't being hard enough on you so let me pound a little. You are a nit. I know this since you are one of the few players tighter than me and I am a nit. Getting to go 480345025 bets on the flop with an overpair is a fun experience if you are mike, or chris, or HOWMANY. Guys like you and me don't get to do that unless someone is really on tilt or we have the nuts. BTW, just in case you forgot, you didn't have an overpair. As far as your turn play goes that was super duper expert. Well done. Now squeeze one more in on the river. People saying she won't pay of with KK or QQ may be right but there is only one way to find out. If you get checkraised you are on your own. I won't be providing valuesweat anymore since when I do the river always bricks.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Not only was hers bigger but the last time I was in such a contest was the Johnson admninstration. Andrew Johnson. It doesn't befit me.

Don't forget, though, of all the underpairs, I had the best one. Especially on the turn.

I can't wait to see the reactions when I post what I did on the river. Why can't you guys all be nice, like Josh?

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I'd 4bet preflop because people have got to understand that it's your button and that means you're going to keep raising because you can. Flop when she checks my standard thing here is to actually say "okay" when I check behind because her play is so retarded. Then she'll try to bet/3bet the turn and we can 4bet when we get lucky against her AA. Unfortunately she has caught up to you on the river so bet and tell yourself she has ATs when you call the c/r.

As played call the c/r and still tell yourself she has ATs.

Just read your last response and it scared me. DON'T CHECK THE RIVER

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I think bet/call is the standard play.

I think what Andy is trying to get at was that she checked quickly on the river. This is odd because she thus far has represented an overpair or A high flush draw, and either way the A makes a difference - it turned a marginal hand into a decent one, or made a pretty good one a lot worse.

Her gut reaction of instant checking is a lot like the instinctive coiling of a snake planning to strike. It's not as common for her to rapidly check if she had KK, AKs, ATs, or indeed just about anything but AA. With all of the other hands an A on the river is cause for at least momentary reconsideration.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

I realize you had the best underpair. If that matters at this point then I will be amazed. Here is the thing that a few people mentioned but I will try and elaborate. At this limit most players have some reasonable understanding of how to play in shorthanded pots. One of the main reasons for 3 betting out of the BB against a button opener is to take the initiative away since so many flops will miss you both. Your K8s or whatever is just forced to hate itself when the flop is QJ4 or A56 or 29T. Her checking the flop gives up all that fold equity and allows you to regain some control or take free cards. Why would she let you do that? The answer is simple: she doesn't care and has a strong holding and wants to play tricky.

I wish I could sort through 1 million or so shorthanded hands I have played in my database and assign an exact value for the 3 bet pre/check the flop line but I can't so we will have to estimate. The likelihood that this is top pair or better is so high that I think checking behind like HOWMANY said could very well be right. If she is nutty enough to play AK like this then you should probably have been able to tell us that initially. When you get checkraised on the flop you are crushed so often that I think you have an absolutely terrible spot to go to war.

BTW, Josh's AndyFox love is universal. From one parent to another I think you know that the time to be concerned is when the reprimands stop. Then you know we no longer care.

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Can/should I actually give her a free card on the flop with my vulnerable pair of 9s?

Re: 60-120 hand
 

Good stuff, from start to finish. Thanks.

OK, Enough
 

So the river is an Ace and she checks quickly. I thought for about three seconds. I concluded that with all those chips already in the pot she would likely bet out and that, imaginative or not, she wouldn't check-raise me without a set of aces here, so I could bet and comfortably--or at least not uncomfortably--fold to a check-raise. And that she was possibly disgusted enough with my set of tens (in her mind) to call the river with her kings or queens anyway; the call of the raise in rhythm on the turn indicated to me that she was pot-committed at that point. I bet and she called quickly but unenthusiastically. She shook her head in disgust when I showed and flashed her pocket kings.

As many have pointed out, 4-betting pre-flop has merit, and I put in as many as six bets too many on the flop. That not one person could find a defense of my flop play is, of course, telling. The more interesting discussion might be whether to check the flop or bet when she checks, good points being raised by both Surfdoc and HowMany on that issue.

Re: OK, Enough
 

Andy,

By the way, I liked the quote so much that I googled for it, and it comes up as a David Duchovny quote.... which doesn't seem right. Is he quoting someone else?

Re: OK, Enough
 

Well, his father was a writer and he has a masters in English Literature from Yale. So I believe it is indeed his.

Re: OK, Enough
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, his father was a writer and he has a masters in English Literature from Yale. So I believe it is indeed his.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya i found a page with some other quotes. he is clearly very thoughtful and intelligent.