Two Plus Two Newer Archives

Two Plus Two Newer Archives (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/index.php)
-   Small Stakes (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=41)
-   -   Fill up on river, shove or check? (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=558435)

deaders 12-01-2007 01:48 AM

Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
Vs a 45/11/2.2 villain, so hes pretty donkish, not just a passive station. We havent been involved in many hands, but he has raised a few times in EP and checked to me and folded to a bet.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $267.55
BB: $224
UTG: $189
MP: $204
CO: $277.05
BTN: $115.55

Pre-Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
2 folds, CO calls $2, BTN folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $10</font>, BB folds, CO calls $8

Flop: ($22) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $17</font>, CO calls $17

Turn: ($56) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $42</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $84</font>, Hero calls $42

River: ($224) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)

I have ~170 left.

AMT 12-01-2007 01:57 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
ugh this is weird...if you think he'll bet an ace again on this board aka if hes really dumb, i dont mind checking, but i think a lot of the time he calls a river value bet.

Casper05 12-01-2007 02:02 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
84

deaders 12-01-2007 02:03 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
84

[/ QUOTE ]

seirously? why? If we are betting then this lets him off really cheap.

Casper05 12-01-2007 02:05 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
Hes going to shove a straight or a flush anyway, and I think he will fold Ax (non 2pr hands) to a shove.

AMT 12-01-2007 02:06 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
84

[/ QUOTE ]

seirously? why? If we are betting then this lets him off really cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]


i think hes probably picking a # based on the line and pot size and villain that he think the guy will call. if you think he'll call a shove, then shove sir.

my1ifesavins 12-01-2007 02:10 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
84

[/ QUOTE ]

seirously? why? If we are betting then this lets him off really cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea 84 seems really bad. I would just shove he's not folding a flush which is his most likely hand imo.

deaders 12-01-2007 02:10 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hes going to shove a straight or a flush anyway, and I think he will fold Ax (non 2pr hands) to a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah that sounds good actually, i didnt seriously consider a small bet at the time.

my1ifesavins 12-01-2007 02:13 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
I disagree that he will shove a straight. maybe a flush but no way he does all the time. I think he calls a shove with the flush more often than he will shove over our bet. and why are we putting villain on Ax? seems unlikely.

orange 12-01-2007 02:25 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
check raise.

loosbastard 12-01-2007 02:35 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree...but when they check behind w/ a small flush it really really tilts me.

goofyballer 12-01-2007 02:35 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
I might c/r AI, once he minraises turn when it's hard for him to have any kind of draw (thus his range is, like, good hands) and as far as donks are concerned that's as blank as rivers get. Thus, I think he'll bet.

rsxpunk 12-01-2007 02:42 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
counting on him to bet is bad imo. he's a donk just shove.

my1ifesavins 12-01-2007 03:03 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
what hands is villain value betting that he's not calling a shove?

Fonkey123 12-01-2007 03:06 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
Jesus oh my God Christ SHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE!!!

bilbo-san 12-01-2007 03:23 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
84

[/ QUOTE ]

seirously? why? If we are betting then this lets him off really cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think hes probably picking a # based on the line and pot size and villain that he think the guy will call. if you think he'll call a shove, then shove sir.

[/ QUOTE ]



This tilts me. Shove.

It isn't about how often he will call. It's about the EV of a bet.

10% of a $100 bet = 100% of a $10 bet.

Grandezza 12-01-2007 03:40 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
what hands is villain value betting that he's not calling a shove?

[/ QUOTE ]

None I think. I actually think that if he somehow got there with an A he's more likely to call a shove thinking your line looks like missed nut flush draw or something than betting that A.

Shoving&gt;c/ring&gt;betting half pot because if you bet half pot he might just call with something like trips where as if you C/R you get his whole stack..

nazahl 12-01-2007 03:49 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
CRAI pretty sure its not even close

my1ifesavins 12-01-2007 03:53 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
CRAI pretty sure its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

for what reason? villain will never be bluffing and u really think that his v-bet range is wider than his range for calling a shove? if so examples plz.

nazahl 12-01-2007 04:07 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CRAI pretty sure its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

for what reason? villain will never be bluffing and u really think that his v-bet range is wider than his range for calling a shove? if so examples plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you putting villain on after the turn action?

SABR42 12-01-2007 04:31 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
Jesus Christ some people here have FPS.

Effective stacks sizes are $156, and the pot is $224.

Why would anyone NOT shove here?

The only possible argument for checking is if villain will bluff total air a significant % of the time.

my1ifesavins 12-01-2007 04:58 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CRAI pretty sure its not even close

[/ QUOTE ]

for what reason? villain will never be bluffing and u really think that his v-bet range is wider than his range for calling a shove? if so examples plz.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are you putting villain on after the turn action?

[/ QUOTE ]

umm...a flush ldo? maybe A7/56/44 as far as hands we beat and he's gonna have A8 sometimes i guess. i think his range is super weighted towards flushes tho.

deaders 12-01-2007 05:16 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
Yah I guess shove is pretty obvious, he folded quickly when I shoved but I think he has to have a big enough hand to call with often enough for shoving to be the best option.

Rollos 12-01-2007 05:28 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
I would probably c/r since a 45/11 can show up with air here and almost always value bets with a flush.

orange 12-01-2007 05:30 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
most any hand that he's calling a shove with he's betting on the river.

deaders 12-01-2007 05:34 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
But there are hands he could call a shove with that he might check behind on the river.

I guess most people think hes not bluffing often with the turn raise so will valuebet anything that he raised the turn with? I dont think his turn raising range is only flushes.

kaby 12-01-2007 08:55 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
counting on him to bet is bad imo. he's a donk just shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

.

pretty sure shoving &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; any other option



most any hand that he's calling a shove with he's betting on the river.


this is not true

A4 will call a shove most of the time, but checks behind

also, it's not impossible for villain to have like AT-AQ

Unknown Soldier 12-01-2007 09:27 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
most any hand that he's calling a shove with he's betting on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya cr

JFsports 12-01-2007 09:40 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
I'd shove, if it was deeper I'd like a c/r. With less than a PSB, CRAI seems like FPS to me. Line is irrelevant if he has straight+, the money is going in. There's a good chance he'd check behind with an A, but I think these guys will call with an A, so I think shoving is best.

ddrstel 12-01-2007 09:54 AM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
WTF shove!

Why would a donk be bluffing the turn here only to follow it up with a river shove?

Someone mentioned before, effective stacks 156, pot is 224. Just shove.

AMT 12-01-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
84

[/ QUOTE ]

seirously? why? If we are betting then this lets him off really cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think hes probably picking a # based on the line and pot size and villain that he think the guy will call. if you think he'll call a shove, then shove sir.

[/ QUOTE ]



This tilts me. Shove.

It isn't about how often he will call. It's about the EV of a bet.

10% of a $100 bet = 100% of a $10 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


There is a direct correlation between how often he will call and the EV of the bet, thank you for laying out the basic math for me though. I should've said "If you think he'll OFTEN call a shove, then shove". Being that I didn't look terribly closely at the stacks on the river last time I visited this thread (my bad), I'd say it looks more like a shove when betting the river than any lesser bet.

AshleyC 12-01-2007 12:39 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 

PLEASE SHOVE

goofyballer 12-01-2007 06:37 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
fwiw, hands villain calls a shove with that he might not bet himself = naked Ax, and there's no reason for him to have that

Everything else in his range = let him bet in case he's being a retard and doesn't have trips or better

Fonkey123 12-01-2007 07:32 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
fwiw, hands villain calls a shove with that he might not bet himself = naked Ax, and there's no reason for him to have that

Everything else in his range = let him bet in case he's being a retard and doesn't have trips or better

[/ QUOTE ]

They often check behind small flushes and usually check behind 56. They also rarely fold these hands to a push.

spivey 12-01-2007 07:54 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
A 45/11/2 is never, never ever checking behind a flush.

terp 12-01-2007 07:57 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
shove

Keyser. 12-01-2007 08:01 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
shove

[/ QUOTE ]

sh58 12-01-2007 08:09 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
shove. he is only folding things he bluffed the turn with, so nothing really.

i don't really like checking because he might check behind a weirdly played AK or something, whilst he would always call a bet with it

sh58 12-01-2007 08:12 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
wow. lol at all the check raisers

goofyballer 12-01-2007 08:47 PM

Re: Fill up on river, shove or check?
 
[ QUOTE ]
wow. lol at all the check raisers

[/ QUOTE ]

lol at anyone who lols at goofyballer especially after I gave pretty solid reasoning for my actions

more like lol at anyone who thinks he has AK here


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.