Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

More specifically reincarnation, does it have to be synonymous with religion and believing in God? I ask because of a question I posed on another forum where I got told I couldnt believe in RC because I also claimed I was an atheist.

I happen to consider the two matters seperate and wondered what the general consensus was on 2p2?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

They're absolutely separate. Not only can you be an atheist and believe in reincarnation, but there are even religions that don't believe in gods but do believe in reincarnation (some sects of Buddhism are like this).

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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More specifically reincarnation, does it have to be synonymous with religion and believing in God? I ask because of a question I posed on another forum where I got told I couldnt believe in RC because I also claimed I was an atheist.

I happen to consider the two matters seperate and wondered what the general consensus was on 2p2?

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Two different things. Those telling you otherwise were not atheists.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

If you go to wikipedia there's a huge list of variations on reincarnation. Down at the bottom is the scientific research then tons of article links in the footnotes.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

I guess the better question would be why?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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I guess the better question would be why?

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Why wouldn't he want to research as many angles as possible on this. He trying to find something that's not all that common. To locate it might take more indepth research and searching as many avenues as possible. Did you think SMP has the only authoritative answer on this question?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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If you go to wikipedia there's a huge list of variations on reincarnation. Down at the bottom is the scientific research then tons of article links in the footnotes.

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scientific research?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

They are separate, but it just so happens most atheists are too smart and/or rational to believe in reincarnation. By the same token, atheists generally don't believe in ghosts, zodiac predictions, or superstitious beliefs either, but none of those are religious things (generally speaking).

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Religion can be a lot of things, it doesn't have to mean believing in a god or some such. Believing in reincarnation can certainly qualify in the eyes of some people.

And if you look at atheism as only the lack of belief in god or divine beings, you could even say there are atheistic religions.

They are just words, and they can mean different things.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

That poster assumed you were an atheist based on intelligent rational thought.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Sure you can believe in reincarnation if you are an athiest, it just makes you a [censored] retarded one.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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Sure you can believe in reincarnation if you are an athiest, it just makes you a [censored] retarded one.

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Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

[ QUOTE ]
More specifically reincarnation, does it have to be synonymous with religion and believing in God? I ask because of a question I posed on another forum where I got told I couldnt believe in RC because I also claimed I was an atheist.

I happen to consider the two matters seperate and wondered what the general consensus was on 2p2?

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Well they're both superstitious nonsense but that doesn't make them connected. So no, you don't have to believe one to believe the other. That being said, the logic and reasoning behind atheism generally leads to not believing other nonsense.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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If you go to wikipedia there's a huge list of variations on reincarnation. Down at the bottom is the scientific research then tons of article links in the footnotes.

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Actually by the very definition of "science" I can tell you that you are incorrect without even bothering to click the link.

This is because science must be testable and it is impossible to test is somebody has been re-incarnated without them giving us something like an object which has not yet been discovered or which has been locked in an unopened safe for many hundreds of years (and with proof that it has been unopened). This is the only kind of test which could be used for verification and the logistics of setting it up under controlled conditions are --- well, very difficult.

I have heard of only one account of a supernatural/metaphyscial thing from a rational person that was not entirely subjective or just plain stupid. That was in Michael Crichton's "Travels" and even there, there are many alternative explanations.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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Sure you can believe in reincarnation if you are an athiest, it just makes you a [censored] retarded one.

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Damn, and for the first time in 2p2 history I thought we would get a douchebag free thread.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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I guess the better question would be why?

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Why wouldn't he want to research as many angles as possible on this. He trying to find something that's not all that common. To locate it might take more indepth research and searching as many avenues as possible. Did you think SMP has the only authoritative answer on this question?

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Research != believe knowwhatimsayin?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

*sigh* i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson and is now contuining to be investigated by Dr. Jim Tucker. And concerning atheism, it is a belief ststem, one cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a supernatural realm using the current scientific methodology. I think it is important to remain agnostic and in the true spirit of science, not let our beliefs blind us from what might be the truth. Whether it means God exists or He doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Human memory is fraught with detail. Is it not possible that racial memory would be just as detailed instead of considering reincarnation as an option?

I read the wiki. Interesting. But to rely on hypnotic methods and similarity of birthmarks is dubious at best, if only because the reliability of those methods aren't ironclad.

Now, if you had concrete physical proof instead of hearsay from individuals without relying on hypnotic regression... Maybe there would be merit to the idea.

Human memory is a strange and wonderful thing, and may just be more complex than we can think it to be. I'm more willing to think that our racial memory is quite complex and capable of retaining more than the ability to find food.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

-As an atheist, I could believe in "numbers", "infinite straight lines", "points" in "space", or that "for any given line and point not on the line, there is one parallel line through the point not intersecting the line"

-I could also, just not believe that last proposition: Intro on Lobachevsky

-Or go even further: "It is well known that geometry presupposes not only the concept of space but also the first fundamental notions for constructions in space as given in advance. It only gives nominal definitions for them, while the essential means of determining them appear in the form of axioms. The relationship of these presumptions is left in the dark; one sees neither whether and in how far their connection is necessary, nor a priori whether it is possible. From Euclid to Legendre, to name the most renowned of modern writers on geometry, this darkness has been lifted neither by the mathematicians nor the philosophers who have laboured upon it."
On the hypotheses which lie at the foundation of geometry (1854), by Bernhard Riemann



-I could believe that the planet Venus has a mass, and an acceleration (moves faster/slower towards or away from, say, "me"). In that case I could believe Venus has a Force F; it's entirely up to me to believe if that Force F is the way it's been described by the ancients, and whether or not there's a relation with constellations further away, like Lion. Maybe I'm a Lionheart too, like that medieval king.

-Then again, since we're speaking about larger distances, I may want to switch to general relativity. Because after all, that's what I've been told to do in these situations. In that case, Venus would have an Energy E equal to it's mass times c^2. Whether that Energy E is exactly..."rinse and repeat".



-I could believe in the validity of causal logic/deductive reasoning...But then I'd have to believe in certain axioms (a troll might call them superstitious beliefs or "dogma"): among others, there's "reflexivity", "transitivity", "monotonicity"... and "Ex falso quodlibet". The last one means that I can deduct anything I want from a contradiction (P&~P, "this sentence is a lie",...).

-I don't know about you, but "anything I want" is a whole lot; reincarnation, god and/or gods, Alice in Wonderland, a "Salvador Dali"-type reality where time is an illusion,... Even "Jesus is god's son and he called his audience brothers and sisters, therefore I'm god's son too".

-To put it in biblical terms: "In the beginning there was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god." (John 1,1). When I study the word (that's logos, in Greek, hence: "logic"), I study... These are some of the things I could believe in, as an atheist. But I don't.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson

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have you actually read his 'research'? It's easier to read it as a parody on Saturday Night Live than being presented as a scientific study.
Really. A dog would drill a hole in the floor if he were as circular in the pursuit of his tail.

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

I just imagined a dog with a Black and Decker drill.

Thanks for that. It was a dull afternoon.

People tend to take wiki as gospel these days, it seems. They shouldn't. The U of Virginia has a Division of Perceptual Studies, that much you can glean from the page.

Rather odd that academics has become so broad that anything and everything gets included.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson

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have you actually read his 'research'? It's easier to read it as a parody on Saturday Night Live than being presented as a scientific study.
Really. A dog would drill a hole in the floor if he were as circular in the pursuit of his tail.

luckyme

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I think you have to answer your own question sir.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson

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have you actually read his 'research'? It's easier to read it as a parody on Saturday Night Live than being presented as a scientific study.
Really. A dog would drill a hole in the floor if he were as circular in the pursuit of his tail.

luckyme

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I think you have to answer your own question sir.

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you're new here. Before I spend a lot of time discussing research with you I want to know if you have read his work and consider it qualifies as representative of the scientific method. ( I've gone through his 'Children Remember ...' book).
iow, the question was more about you, not him, you may be Splendors tutor for all I know.

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

I'm not an expert on his research by any means, but i have have read articles and watch some videos on the basic premise of it. Stevenson himself was extremely skeptical of his own work, he never once concluded it proved reincarnation as scientific fact. But what he did mention was reincarnation is a phenonemna which needs to be taken more seriously.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Incidentally, is there any sort of peer review process in place for paranormal research?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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I'm not an expert on his research by any means, but i have have read articles and watch some videos on the basic premise of it. Stevenson himself was extremely skeptical of his own work, he never once concluded it proved reincarnation as scientific fact. But what he did mention was reincarnation is a phenonemna which needs to be taken more seriously.

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So, I'm the one that can now say,

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*sigh* i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson

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read even that one book, come back with comments on the merit of the science in it. Then use him as a reference to bolster your point..
no?

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Um the point you have made is completely irrelevant. You have not stated as into why this research is not scientific, or why it should be disregarded. Just because i haven't read a book, does NOT mean i am not familiar with his research, therfore your argument has no merit . And if your looking for some kind of literature on the subject then by all means go to...

[url=https://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#CORT]

http://www.near-death.com/experience...rnation01.html

I don't know how scientific one can get using a poker forum...

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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Um the point you have made is completely irrelevant. You have not stated as into why this research is not scientific, or why it should be disregarded. Just because i haven't read a book, does NOT mean i am not familiar with his research, ...

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I'm wiping the jelly off the hammer...
Do YOU think the methods he used in his research meet an acceptable level of scientific rigor?
You don't have to prove to me it does, I just want your verdict on it.

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

I think he did the best science he possibly could, considering it is such a controversial subject.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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I think he did the best science he possibly could, considering it is such a controversial subject.

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And the controversy should affect your scientific methods how? By taking care to be extra rigorous in your methods or getting sloppy?
What's your opinion on where he ended up on the continuum?....wipe.
( I've never considered that the amount of rigor that science demands is dependent on the controversy involved, but they are human. "lots of people are going to attack this so I'll ..." could be an influence I suppose)

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

What do you mean getting sloppy? If you could point me to a source where this mentioned, i would love to hear it, or maybe elaborate a bit further. Look just because this is controversial, it does not mean the research is invalid which is what i think your suggesting...

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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Incidentally, is there any sort of peer review process in place for paranormal research?

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...Anyone?

Or tell me in what journals the results are published?

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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What do you mean getting sloppy? If you could point me to a source where this mentioned, i would love to hear it, or maybe elaborate a bit further. Look just because this is controversial, it does not mean the research is invalid which is what i think your suggesting...

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4th attempt -
What is GaSSPaNiCC's evaluation of the quality of the science done in the work in question?
A - top notch. No finer research has ever been done in any field.
B - excellent with minor quibbles on ....
C - ok, some rough edges.
D - definitely flaws in the ...
E - shoddy in a lot of areas.
F - gawdawful.

There, it's down to one letter for you. ( mine was F).
If you're not going to on the forum much it doesn't matter, but I like to know whose links and references are worth reading and whose aren't. ( it's related to the thread on 'respecting opinions'.)

luckyme

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

for a person to qualify as "reincarnated," must he have memory of prior lives? if so, then what we know about the body/brain would seem to be inconsistent with the idea.

however, if no memory of past life (or premonition of future life) is required, then "reincarnation?" becomes philosophical rather than factual.

"what is the nature of conciousness?" is a question that no one here can put to rest. neither can anyone tell you (accurately) that your answer is wrong.

science is fallible, because it is based on human perception. it does a tremendous job of describing/explaining the mechanisms that seem to make up the world we percieve, but it does not prove reality (because the perception it is based on could be flawed)- unless it is taken as given that what we percieve IS reality. well, if that is true, then what about when different people percieve different things? can there be different realities?

there are many different logical paths you can consider, as falcanelli posted earlier.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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*sigh* i guess no one is familiar with the reincarnation research done by Dr. Ian Stevenson and is now contuining to be investigated by Dr. Jim Tucker. And concerning atheism, it is a belief ststem, one cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a supernatural realm using the current scientific methodology. I think it is important to remain agnostic and in the true spirit of science, not let our beliefs blind us from what might be the truth. Whether it means God exists or He doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation_research

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Step 1: Use words with scary connotations like "belief system" or "dogma"
Step 2: Assert atheism is such.
Step 3: Victory!

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Ok so since i'm the idiot and your the genius, WHY is it reincarnation research should be avoided? Of course some of the cases aren't perfect, and it's hard to draw a conclusions, but there is enough data there to suggest something is going on. It is research like this which challenges the modern scientific viewpoint, and to be honest a lot of skeptics and scientists are uncomfortable because it does just that. So of course the only the way around it, is to berate the research that way it's easier to ignore. Which is essentially the case here, for some unstated reason i'm a crackpot because i support this research. Anyways i doubt i'm going to get an explanation, but if i do, i'll gladly admit i'm wrong, but of course it has to be valid one.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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Ok so since i'm the idiot and your the genius, WHY is it reincarnation research should be avoided? Of course some of the cases aren't perfect, and it's hard to draw a conclusions, but there is enough data there to suggest something is going on. It is research like this which challenges the modern scientific viewpoint, and to be honest a lot of skeptics and scientists are uncomfortable because it does just that. So of course the only the way around it, is to berate the research that way it's easier to ignore. Which is essentially the case here, for some unstated reason i'm a crackpot because i support this research. Anyways i doubt i'm going to get an explanation, but if i do, i'll gladly admit i'm wrong, but of course it has to be valid one.

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It isn't discomfort but disbelief. There's an university research department basically practicing pseudoscience trying to prove that people are reborn?

That's far out of the realm of practical science and the research is diverting funds that could go somewhere more valuable to medicine or science that has the potential to contribute to day to day life.

Even within the field, you could allocate the man-hours or funding to researching how memory works instead of reincarnation, which may be a dead end. And that would basically accomplish the same goals.

So it isn't that scientists are uncomfortable with the idea that this may be valid research, it's just that it is likely to yield any practical use.

If you want to challenge modern science, focus on how the process of memory works instead, and if reincarnation is valid, a more focused research approach would yield it as a matter of course anyway.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

Why not try to objectively observe this phenonema to our greatest abililty? This is what stevenson did, and is still being pursued to this very day. I mean if these children are proclaiming to have recollection of a previous life, why not investigate it? It may seem unconvential, but that does not make it pseudoscience, and does not mean we cannot pursue the greatest objective truth of reality as we can. If it is objectively observable, i don't see any problem with resarch being conducted, especially if positive results are accumulated. Also research like this can sway the way in which most of us view the world, which i think is a most necessity at this point. You don't have to worry about it getting funding either, it doesn't get enough already as it is, which i think is absurd and is not being scientific. I understand that it is obviously hard to consider a mechanism for something like this, but i feel that this research serves a greater purpose then that.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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however, if no memory of past life (or premonition of future life) is required, then "reincarnation?" becomes philosophical rather than factual.


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If you mean that "philosophical" deals with desires or nice sounding things that border on reality but are not ever it then I'll disagree. "Philosophical" deals with truth or better yet "wisdom" and is not a carnival side show.As the word states it speaks to the "love of wisdom". This really comes to the individual and not some broad abstraction as "philosophy".

Reincarnation and Karma speaks to Morality.Man's destiny is a moral tone poem whose essence is Love.

When space, time and other scientific abstractions are treated as the "only real" then concepts such as "big bang" progressing to a death of "only heat" obfuscate the reality of the Moral. Without the Moral Man is a "fifth wheel" , watching the universal progression without being a part of the same.

We are "within nature" and if you consider yourself in any way involved with "morality" then a good logical conclusion is that "nature" is also involved with "morality". Around you is "nature" which is your karma. Your position and place on earth, your family, clan, nation and race, all karmic. Your very body is karmic and related to destiny.

Love frees one from earthly karma and in this Man becomes free, new and nobled. Karma is not a burden to be shunned but a great joy to be greeted and transformed, for in this comes the renewal of Man.

As an addition, yes, you planned your karma. What man can complain he is only a "atom of infinity" when he planned his house and now lives in it? Karma is Morality redeemed and is a boon to mankind.

Re: Can you believe in certain things without being religious?
 

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It is research like this which challenges the modern scientific viewpoint, and to be honest a lot of skeptics and scientists are uncomfortable because it does just that.

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What a strange view of science. (as suspected earlier).

There isn't a scientist alive who wouldn't give their right testicle to prove Relavity, say, wrong. You could summarize science as 'the attempt to disprove what we think we know.' and not be far off.

Unlike religion, science isn't about maintaining the status quo but trying to get beyond it.

luckyme