Two pair with 98
 

Sorry if these are clear choices. I haven't played much LHE lately and I'm rusty.

CAZ 20-40. Maniac who's not in full maniac mode but is plenty active limps in EP. Two more limpers and I limp the button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB completes and BB checks.

Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. SB bets. He seems to be a serious player and almost certainly beats the game, but he's pretty leaky. Haven't seen him play too many spots analogous to this one. Maniac calls, very passive/honest guy in LMP calls, I call.

Turn 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB checks, maniac bets, LMP calls, I call, SB calls.

River K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Checked to me and I bet.

--Nate

Re: Two pair with 98
 

I assume your original plan was to raise most turns, but the 6 complicated matters? I think you should still raise the turn. LMP didn't raise, meaning you're probably winning, and you should charge heart draws and JT. As played, river bet is fine, but the problem is all the missed draws won't pay now, whereas they would have on the turn.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

Aragorn --

Yeah, that was the plan. There's a good chance I can 3bet, actually, as it will be bet and raised to me on a lot of turns.

It's really worth raising the turn? Nobody's folding a good draw, somebody will show up with a 7 pretty often, and I'm in bad shape when behind... putting in two or three bets drawing to four outs won't have to happen all that often to make it outweigh the benefit of getting the extra bet in four ways while I'm ahead.

--Nate

Re: Two pair with 98
 

Nate, it's amazing how fast you started thinking strictly like a NL player. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Pot control, flat-calling top 2 on the flop, etc.

I would probably raise the flop for value; who cares if good draws don't fold -- you're splitting the money (at worst) with the hands who have no business being in there. I don't mind the turn flat-call and I like the river bet.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

PJ --

I wasn't really controlling the pot on the flop. I thought I'd (a) be able to get a big pile of money in on the turn and (b) see what the turn card would be was a side benefit. On the other hand I might be able to get everyone in for four bets on the flop. Yeah, probably should have raised.

--Nate

Re: Two pair with 98
 

I would probably play this hand exactly the same, but I could be convinced a flop raise is correct.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

I raise preflop, otherwise I play it the same.

as an aside, I've really started to despise flopping two pair. flopping a straight is even worse.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

I'd just raise the flop. There are a lot of cards that are going to kill your action on the turn -- 6's, 7's, pairs, hearts, and aces.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

Hey nate welcome back. I can definitely make a good argument for a flop raise just because so many scare cards can come (6, 7, heart, any overcard, etc) that could kill your action or your hand or maybe both. Plus if SB is an ok player, he may recognize your flop raise as a draw and donk the turn when a blank comes anyway, allowing you to still collect your 2 big bets from everyone. I think this is a spot where you could do either on the flop, although at CAZ I always find that fast playing is probably the best default play in every situation.

Re: Two pair with 98
 

I would consider raising preflop (I do so about 30-40% of the time), and usually raise the flop for value. When you didn't raise the flop, why didn't you raise the turn? I know the 6 is a scary card, but I'd probably raise anyway to get 2 BBs out of flush draws and the like. Wouldn't the maniac have raised the turn if he had a 7? Would the LP guy have smooth-called with only one other guy to act after him if he had a 7?

In game, I would rely on feel and the like, but it seems to me like raising the turn (and flop) for value has merit.

I like the river value bet.