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-   -   Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=526664)

Bicycles_Biatch 10-19-2007 03:39 PM

Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
My roommate and I had a long theoretical argument based on a hand that came up at the 30-60 HG game.

Principal players:

My roommate - pretty tight 2p2'er... everyone realizes he is a positional player, he has been three beating a lot from the HJ and button... but ironically he has had the goods several times, turning over KK on the button twice.

He is kind of a goofy guy... so I think he gets WAY more action than he should based on the fact that he is a good player and/or has a pretty tight preflop raise range. The way people view him is kind of an anomaly to me.

SB- Typical lose-mid-aged-asian-LA player.

BB- ROCK- ROCK- ROCK

folded to my buddy on the button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], RAISE

Call, Call

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, Check, Bet

Call, Fold

Turn Queen[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, my roomy bets.

SB C/R's... my roommate folds.

Here's the argument.

ME- I HATE taking any line that doesn't allow me to get to showdown with a hand that has value. Furthermore... it seems like the overused "play" around LA is to C/R the turn against a steal raise with any hand, any draw, and/or ace high (pretty standard); this seems to be used WAY more around LA than would seem optimal.

I feel if you are going to fold this turn for one bet... why not just check behind and use that one bet you pumped into the pot on the turn to call a river bet and get to show-down?

I really think this guy's C/R range includes any flush draw, a King (obviously), a Queen, and all pocket pairs lower than 9's.

My Roomy- He feels you absolutely HAVE to bet here to charge hands like Ace high, flush draws, and smaller pairs... however, he feels it's an easy fold to the check raise.

I obviously disagree, due to my roomies age, his obvious steal position, and the looseness of the villian... I think folding this turn is really bad. AND, if you are capable of folding here for one bet... why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

Abbaddabba 10-19-2007 03:58 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
your roommate obviously disagrees about the lady's turn check/raise range.

if he really does raise the turn with all the things you mentioned, it's a bet/call - not a check behind (unless you think her flop peel range is really narrow, but that obviously isnt the case based on the description).

NinaWilliams 10-19-2007 04:13 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
[ QUOTE ]
your roommate obviously disagrees about the lady's turn check/raise range.

if he really does raise the turn with all the things you mentioned, it's a bet/call - not a check behind (unless you think her flop peel range is really narrow, but that obviously isnt the case based on the description).

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I fold too, but I dont know how the games in LA play. In these parts, the c/r is a K 87% of the time.

ProfessorBen 10-19-2007 04:40 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
[ QUOTE ]
why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BeakWetter 10-19-2007 05:02 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
I bet this Turn and I have to fold to the C/R. Maybe AC and FW play real different than LA, but both of these east coast hot spots Scream K here.

MitchL 10-19-2007 06:29 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
Your friend is right.

blindside 10-19-2007 09:40 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
checking behind is really bad in this spot...

SNOWBALL 10-19-2007 09:47 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
[ QUOTE ]

checking behind is really bad in this spot...

[/ QUOTE ]

wtf no. it's not REALLY BAD. It's actually player dependent.
You have to check this hand vs. a lot of players. A lower PP would almost always be a bet though.

blindside 10-19-2007 10:11 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
it's bad against the player described... someone who's loose and probably peels loose as well...

private joker 10-19-2007 10:33 PM

Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your friend is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded. This turn is a standard bet/fold. So few people in the HG 30 game c/r this turn on a bluff that folding here is fairly easy, and since giving a free card is also quite bad, then the turn almost plays itself.


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