Basic Flop Problem
 

4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd need really good hand to call here.

Do we throw away KK and QQ here?

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

This is the most difficult situation for me. At these levels I've seen bad players make this play with AJ, QQ, KK....how can we fold AA here?

Would an 8 really play it this fast? Seems like he wants you to fold...

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd need really good hand to call here.

Do we throw away KK and QQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since that introduces AA into villain's range I think you are probably flipping at bets with KK and well behind with QQ. I'd put a very tight villain's range at JJ+, AJ and maybe A8. OP's description is this guy is a nit calling station, so when he shows strength it is unlikely to be a bluff.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd need really good hand to call here.

Do we throw away KK and QQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since that introduces AA into villain's range I think you are probably flipping at bets with KK and well behind with QQ. I'd put a very tight villain's range at JJ+, AJ and maybe A8. OP's description is this guy is a nit calling station, so when he shows strength it is likely to be a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean "unlikely to be a bluff"?

Anyway, I wanted to point out that Villain has been playing a lot of hands. So he probably isn't tight. I thihk this hurts us more than helping us, though, since it increases the possibility that an 8 is in his hand.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

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[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. My bad.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'd need really good hand to call here.

Do we throw away KK and QQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since that introduces AA into villain's range I think you are probably flipping at bets with KK and well behind with QQ. I'd put a very tight villain's range at JJ+, AJ and maybe A8. OP's description is this guy is a nit calling station, so when he shows strength it is likely to be a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean "unlikely to be a bluff"?

Anyway, I wanted to point out that Villain has been playing a lot of hands. So he probably isn't tight. I thihk this hurts us more than helping us, though, since it increases the possibility that an 8 is in his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

unlikely . TYVM. post edited.

If he's been playing a 40/1/.4 style, then an 8 is easily in his range. All signs are that you need a monster to stack off here.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

I start thinking it could be a vulnerable made hand like pocket 4's. I wonder if it's simply a huge overbet bluff that's based on the reality that huge bets like this one don't get called very often. I look for draws and see that T9 is possible, but no really strong draw is.

And then I fold pretty much everything besides JJ and 8x. (With AA, I might get stubborn and call.) I suppose that theoretically this makes Villain's play profitable with any two cards, but I feel stupid when I pay off big straightforward overbets, so I'd want to have seen Villain make this play previously before I start calling without a very strong hand.

Edit: I don't think it helps our chances any, either, that our sketchy two-orbit read on Villain is that he's been passive preflop so far. It's not much to go on, I know, but the passive preflop first impression he's made could easily extend into his usual approach to postflop as well.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
So a villain who has shown virtually no aggression wakes up and plays back at you? It's an easy fold without AA, JJ or an 8 in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed, vs a normal opponent AJ=AA here but vs this guy who doesnt raise pf KK/QQ/AA are well within his range for this move.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

Remember a basic truth about no-limit in spots like this: They are not bluffing nearly as often as you think.

I agree with Frank that the minimum hand to call with is AA; but it is pretty close. I hate calling with AA, but feel I must.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

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[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

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FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it make a difference whether it's 4-handed with two out (seat empty or sitting out or whatever) from a 6-max table -- versus 4-handed from a FR table that's gotten short? Or not really?

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty easy fold with AA in your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

FR maybe, but not 4 handed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it make a difference whether it's 4-handed with two out (seat empty or sitting out or whatever) from a 6-max table -- versus 4-handed from a FR table that's gotten short? Or not really?

[/ QUOTE ]

4-handed is 4-handed no matter how many seats the table has. Now if the table was 9-handed and went to 4, and hero notices that villain has not adjusted, then hero should factor that in, but I do not sense that is the case here.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now if the table was 9-handed and went to 4, and hero notices that villain has not adjusted, then hero should factor that in

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, this is what I meant. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
but I do not sense that is the case here.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok. I'm guessing, too, that most people who can't/won't adjust from 9-handed down to 4-handed will just leave the table before that happens.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

This is a really wierd spot for me to figure out for no-limit because in limit, I've found that the super-passive calling stations will sometimes step out of that shell and check-raise with something other than a super-strong hand only on a paired flop. I've met a few limit players where a paired flop is probably the only time they will ever bluff, as far as I can tell.

If hero is going to bet-fold AA, as some people seem inclined to do, should hero check the flop?

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

This was intuition as well...

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree before reading responses my first thought was "call quick with JT".

-DeathDonkey

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]
I bow down before your brilliance [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

After I folded my AQ Villain showed KJ.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i normally agree with you, but if this is the type of guy who never raises preflop, he plays overpairs the same way.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i normally agree with you, but if this is the type of guy who never raises preflop, he plays overpairs the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't have to always win. you just have to win enough to make calling profitable

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

At these limits, I would call with any hand that beats AJ

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]
I bow down before your brilliance [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

After I folded my AQ Villain showed KJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

So villain allowed you to play the hand perfectly. Kind of surprising to see a villain that will not raise pre-flop stack off with TPNK. Very strange combination. Hope you made a note.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i normally agree with you, but if this is the type of guy who never raises preflop, he plays overpairs the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't have to always win. you just have to win enough to make calling profitable

[/ QUOTE ]


---
1,273,140 games 0.016 secs 79,571,250 games/sec

Board: Js 8h 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.411% 34.52% 05.89% 439462 75022.00 { KJs, KJo }
Hand 1: 59.589% 53.70% 05.89% 683634 75022.00 { 77+, AJs, A8s, KJs, K8s, QJs, Q8s, J8s+, T8s, 98s, 85s+, AJo, A8o, KJo, QJo, J9o+, 98o, 87o }


---

range look ok?

edit: QQ+ becomes a snapcall with this range though so if its this wide i was off on that

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4-handed NL $0.25/$0.50.

Hero is the button and raises to $2 with ... something. SB folds and BB calls. In the couple orbits since you sat down BB seems to be playing lots of hands and so far he hasn't raised preflop. Pot is $4.25.

Flop is J88r. BB checks and Hero bets $2.50. Villain raises to $35 all-in and you have this covered. There is $41.75 in the pot and it will cost you $32.50 to call.

What is your thought process when you see this?

What do you need to call with?

[/ QUOTE ]


in my experience, ridiculous overbets from bad players are nearly always some mediocre one pair. it makes no sense at all, but that's just how it is. so here maybe J9 or 77. sometimes he will have an 8, but snap call with KJ+

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like trying to learn a new form of poker and getting wildly different advice from experienced players. Color me confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm right [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

i normally agree with you, but if this is the type of guy who never raises preflop, he plays overpairs the same way.

[/ QUOTE ]


you don't have to always win. you just have to win enough to make calling profitable

[/ QUOTE ]


---
1,273,140 games 0.016 secs 79,571,250 games/sec

Board: Js 8h 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.411% 34.52% 05.89% 439462 75022.00 { KJs, KJo }
Hand 1: 59.589% 53.70% 05.89% 683634 75022.00 { 77+, AJs, A8s, KJs, K8s, QJs, Q8s, J8s+, T8s, 98s, 85s+, AJo, A8o, KJo, QJo, J9o+, 98o, 87o }


---

range look ok?

edit: QQ+ becomes a snapcall with this range though so if its this wide i was off on that

[/ QUOTE ]


his range is too weird to stove. i'll paste mine below but it's no less arbitrary than yours. i'm telling you based on my lots of nl experience that this is a snap call/fist pump with KJ


Board: Js 8h 8d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.090% 44.21% 04.88% 602694 66511.50 { QQ+, TT-99, 77-22, AJs, KJs, QJs, J7s+, T8s, 98s, 85s+, AJo, KJo, QJo, J7o+, T8o, 98o, 85o+ }
Hand 1: 50.910% 46.03% 04.88% 627513 66511.50 { KJo }

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

ok quotes are getting to long. i was never a limit playe fwiw, but at uNL and SSNL i always got burned on these calls against these weirdos. agree about not really being able to give him an accurate range tho. its also possible im just not remembering the times i stacked some drooler w/ TPGK.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

doc,

I think the biggest thing that you and I are basing our opinions on is how passive villain had been up to this point. I think we both snap call with an overpair vs a an average or aggro villain, but against a passive villain who wakes up with a hand this is pretty standard fold until you get a read what his range is for pulling that move.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

the important factor is that he plays a lot of hands. he doesn't think logically. that he doesn't raise many hands preflop doesn't mean as much with regard to his postflop play. plenty of 50/5 players are insanely aggressive postflop.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
the important factor is that he plays a lot of hands. he doesn't think logically. that he doesn't raise many hands preflop doesn't mean as much with regard to his postflop play. plenty of 50/5 players are insanely aggressive postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you; however, the first time I see a passive player do this, I am not looking to felt TP hands. I think we the only thing we disgaree on (slightly) is our read on villain. I do not think we disagree on tactics.

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

Interesting that you say that, as the first time I see an unknown do this I'm calling and figuring the worst case is I find out later it was an awful call and I look unbluffable and gain info. I tend to not fold in close spots when I'm dealing with a lack of information, I find this strategy to be higher variance and higher profit (and future profit).

-DeathDonkey

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that you say that, as the first time I see an unknown do this I'm calling and figuring the worst case is I find out later it was an awful call and I look unbluffable and gain info. I tend to not fold in close spots when I'm dealing with a lack of information, I find this strategy to be higher variance and higher profit (and future profit).


[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with this

Re: Basic Flop Problem
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting that you say that, as the first time I see an unknown do this I'm calling and figuring the worst case is I find out later it was an awful call and I look unbluffable and gain info. I tend to not fold in close spots when I'm dealing with a lack of information, I find this strategy to be higher variance and higher profit (and future profit).

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds like me paying off a river bet in LHE.

<----SD monkey.