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-   -   To cap or not to cap. (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=555843)

Dankenstein 11-27-2007 07:41 PM

To cap or not to cap.
 
Been a while since I've posted a hand. This one is probably a quick answer for you guys, but I'm wondering if the general consensus agrees with my decision on this flop so here goes.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ... </font>
<font color="green">
Preflop is mehh.
</font>
<font color="blue">
CO is a complete idiot. 88.89/8.33/1.2 over 36 hands
He's played almost every hand since he has sat down and has gone to showdown in about half of them. He's not super aggressive but he's not folding a whole lot either. He sits with a weird number of chips which I suspect to be his whole bankroll.
</font>
<font color="orange">

UTG+1 35/8.11/1.33 over 37 hands.
Not exactly a great player but not a complete idiot either.
</font>

I'm not folding here so the question is should I cap it for value or just call and see the turn ?

knockonwood 11-27-2007 07:48 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Cap for value

KyndGroove 11-27-2007 10:08 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Cap. You've got tons of equity and UTG+2 is rarely folding.

KitCloudkicker 11-27-2007 10:10 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
shove

kerowo 11-27-2007 10:13 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Doesn't matter as long as it isn't a fold.

Aaron W. 11-27-2007 10:37 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
CO is a complete idiot. 88.89/8.33/1.2 over 36 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me want to call and go for a turn check-raise if I hit the straight/flush card. The reads make me think CO isn't going to slow down after 3-betting the flop, and that's a good thing here for your implied odds.

tiltaholic 11-27-2007 11:29 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
CO is a complete idiot. 88.89/8.33/1.2 over 36 hands
He's played almost every hand since he has sat down and has gone to showdown in about half of them. He's not super aggressive but he's not folding a whole lot either. He sits with a weird number of chips which I suspect to be his whole bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

88 vpip with aggresion of 1.2 is SUPER aggressive.

I don't think there is as much value in capping as everyone thinks. It's not like there are 6 opponents calling here. There are at most...2. If UTG+1 folds we've lost him for the big streets where at worst we'd have made back the 2sb we're getting on the flop by capping. Capping a FD (yes we have a few more outs than just the 9 whatever) with 2 opponens is much much better when we're in position and can control the turn/river action more. Out of position we basically turn our cards over when the the turn blanks and we check or we find ourselves bluffing into 2 calling stations.

knockonwood 11-28-2007 02:25 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CO is a complete idiot. 88.89/8.33/1.2 over 36 hands
He's played almost every hand since he has sat down and has gone to showdown in about half of them. He's not super aggressive but he's not folding a whole lot either. He sits with a weird number of chips which I suspect to be his whole bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

88 vpip with aggresion of 1.2 is SUPER aggressive.

I don't think there is as much value in capping as everyone thinks. It's not like there are 6 opponents calling here. There are at most...2. If UTG+1 folds we've lost him for the big streets where at worst we'd have made back the 2sb we're getting on the flop by capping. Capping a FD (yes we have a few more outs than just the 9 whatever) with 2 opponens is much much better when we're in position and can control the turn/river action more. Out of position we basically turn our cards over when the the turn blanks and we check or we find ourselves bluffing into 2 calling stations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that having position here makes capping a lot better. However, I don't think UTG2 isnt going to fold to a cap and i think it makes sense to get as much money as we can right now with our equity edge. Also, we can still expect good implied odds off CO on the turn and river when we hit. And we can't rely on UTG2 to hang around on the turn and river.

OziBattler 11-28-2007 02:41 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't matter as long as it isn't a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd show some variation here. calling is great for a screwing with his head by CRing when you make ur flush/straight but capping is good betting right into maniac when you make ur hand. Personally i wouldnt waste too much time worrying about what to do here...i do love to CR maniacs/lags though...gotta show em who's boss [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Harv72b 11-28-2007 02:45 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Why on earth would we want to check/raise the turn when our draw hits? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Aaron W. 11-28-2007 02:56 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why on earth would we want to check/raise the turn when our draw hits? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We're playing against an aggressive opponent who may give us too much action.

Harv72b 11-28-2007 03:00 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
And we have another player who apparently likes his hand sandwiched in the middle of us, and who we'll be facing with 2 cold if we check/raise when an obvious draw (like the frush) comes in on the turn. Lead the turn &amp; hope the lagtard lets us 3bet, when we hit of course.

Aaron W. 11-28-2007 03:02 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
And we have another player who apparently likes his hand sandwiched in the middle of us, and who we'll be facing with 2 cold if we check/raise when an obvious draw (like the frush) comes in on the turn. Lead the turn &amp; hope the lagtard lets us 3bet, when we hit of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless he has TPMK, he's not going to fold any hand he likes.

Dankenstein 11-28-2007 03:05 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]

If UTG+1 folds we've lost him for the big streets where at worst we'd have made back the 2sb we're getting on the flop by capping.

[/ QUOTE ]
UTG did fold. something I really wasn't expecting from him.

The turn is a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I lead out and CO calls

The river is a 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Hero....Bluffs OOP ? Check calls with AK high...or Check folds his busted draw in a pot that is over 10BB.

Mitke 11-28-2007 05:06 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
* g *

(Preflop is ok if the table is on the loose-side, esp the blinds.)

To the flop question:

(I'm not sure about leading the flop, although we'd like to bloat the pot here for our monster draw and villains are on the passive side.)

My first instinct is to cap it w 12 outs to the nuts. The thing is that I don't think we drive out the UTG from the pot by capping. If we hit the turn it is going to look scary and the passives might not allow us to c/r or give much action anyway so get the money in now and give them more reasons to stay in if we hit.

neurotiq 11-28-2007 05:25 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
For what it's worth, I think preflop is fine.

Against this opponent, I usually just call in this spot and wait until after the draw hits to raise again. I don't want UTG+2 to freak out and fold when it goes two bets back to him, either.

OziBattler 11-28-2007 07:21 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a 2
I lead out and CO calls

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, given the flop action he, being an idiot, isnt folding any sort of made hand and you have K high [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

fretelöo 11-28-2007 07:42 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a 2
I lead out and CO calls

[/ QUOTE ]

umm, given the flop action he, being an idiot, isnt folding any sort of made hand and you have K high [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

... and turn your hand face up if you check oop if a brick comes and you just capped the flop...

OziBattler 11-28-2007 07:49 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
... and turn your hand face up if you check oop if a brick comes and you just capped the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

fret, welcome back! I Dont think it matters against a villian is an idiot and even though we capped teh flop I think our fold equity against an idiot who 3bet the flop is zippo. if we think he is capable of bluffing a worse busted draw on the river then we can c/c with K high

in general, its not that wise to bluff/semibluff when we know he will call/raise isnt that smrt.

Mitke 11-28-2007 07:52 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The turn is a 2, I lead out and CO calls

[/ QUOTE ]
umm, given the flop action he, being an idiot, isnt folding any sort of made hand and you have K high [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

... and turn your hand face up if you check oop if a brick comes and you just capped the flop...

[/ QUOTE ]

True, however I'm wondering does it matter in this spot?

We are playing against a loooose semiaggro who just 3-bet raised flop. He probably isn't going to fold on the turn and chances are he's not going to fold on the river either.

Moreover, I think it is more likely he could raise costing us 1BB extra to see the river with K-high and a good draw.

fretelöo 11-28-2007 08:01 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Well, first of all it indeed doesn't matter all that much. However, pot is now 7BB (correct?). So if he just folds 14% that bet is fine. Second, if he calls, we still have decent equity, same goes if he raises.
Third, just for the off-chance that he's drawing too, I'm keeping the lead because in those cases, my bluff beats his bluff.

Or in short: Given our hand/draw, a raise (worst case) doesn't really hurt us all that much, while a bet has some potential benefits to it.
What I think is a lot more interesting is whether to cap the flop if we know that villain will bet any turn for us if we just call is really worth it. If UTG is indeed calling the cap we're making 2/6 or so of a SB from that cap in immediate expectation, right? If UTG is folding, we're contributing 50% for our ~50% equity...

LukeSLTS 11-28-2007 09:33 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
I would probably just call the flop 3bet OOP. Then c/c the turn. and c/f the river.

rhayder 11-28-2007 10:22 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Call and see the turn and hope you hit and they are aggressive

Mitke 11-28-2007 10:55 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Well, first of all it indeed doesn't matter all that much. However, pot is now 7BB (correct?). So if he just folds 14% that bet is fine. Second, if he calls, we still have decent equity, same goes if he raises.
Third, just for the off-chance that he's drawing too, I'm keeping the lead because in those cases, my bluff beats his bluff.

Or in short: Given our hand/draw, a raise (worst case) doesn't really hurt us all that much, while a bet has some potential benefits to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, these are all perfectly valid reasons to lead the turn. I'm still not convinced it's a better option than c/c turn. Like you point out, I don't think betting out is a particularly costly option either.

To see which one would be the better option we'd have to guesstimate how often villain folds his hand either on the turn or river (if we 3-barrel) or we c/c the river to induce him to bluff the river with a worse draw and he actually has a draw, and how much action he gives if he was on a draw and we both hit.

I'm with Ozi in estimating our fold equity to be minuscule on the turn and that the possibility of a raise (which would cost us ~0.75BB more to draw) to be high enough to offset the potential benefit of a fold or beating his bluff with out own.

These possibilities are matters of opinion so not much point arguing them further, IMHO (and that's a long argument doing just that, I know.. ).


[ QUOTE ]
What I think is a lot more interesting is whether to cap the flop if we know that villain will bet any turn for us if we just call is really worth it. If UTG is indeed calling the cap we're making 2/6 or so of a SB from that cap in immediate expectation, right? If UTG is folding, we're contributing 50% for our ~50% equity...

[/ QUOTE ]

Harv and Aaron &amp; Co discussed this a bit earlier in the thread.

I really can't tell personally. I do however think that capping the flop disguises our hand better for the turn than a call, which also can work in favor of our implied odds.

Dankenstein 11-28-2007 09:09 PM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
Thanks for the responses.

I didn't even think the turn lead would spark so much debate. I felt like the turn lead out was almost standard there after capping the flop.In this size of a pot, I don't think a raise hurts me much, and I wanted to continue building the pot for my draw.
My main goal in posting the rest of the hand was that I wanted to see if you think check/calling or bet/folding this river is a good move or not. I personally feel that the pot is big enough that we should use this line. My thought process behind this is that our opponent is on some sort of draw enough of the time that this pot cannot be folded here even with K high.
Do you agree or disagree ?

Mitke 11-29-2007 02:20 AM

Re: To cap or not to cap.
 
[ QUOTE ]
My main goal in posting the rest of the hand was that I wanted to see if you think check/calling or bet/folding this river is a good move or not. I personally feel that the pot is big enough that we should use this line. My thought process behind this is that our opponent is on some sort of draw enough of the time that this pot cannot be folded here even with K high.
Do you agree or disagree ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, just some thoughts, you are basically rooting that he has either a FD, QT, or a small pair he'd fold to a bet.

As he is quite aggressive (for a guy that loose preflop), I'm pretty sure he'll bet if you check anything he holds.

I think b/f would be the line to take if you want to spend that 1BB. It at least could get him to fold some made hands once in a blue moon. And you have a pretty easy fold to a raise I think with K-high. Draws you'd beat anyway by c/c this.

However, as I've been discussing about the turn I'm not at all thinking that the Villain has a draw here. But then again, that's open to debate.


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