FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Villain has been berating me in chat all game. I played him once already and won on first hand with a gutshot, nut flush draw and A pair draw to his QQ on flop.

Reads: Villain has generally potted with pure bluffs on the turn when I check behind flops, so far when he checks on the turn in this situation I've seen him show up with top and 3-4th pair, don't recall which.

Don't remember blind level but I know we're about 25bb deep so I'll put stack sizes up accordingly (I know he had me covered and effective size was 25bb).

Hero (1250)

Villain (1750)

Blinds 25-50.

Hero on button raises to 100. Villain calls.

Villain calling light but prolly not enough to call him a station at this buyin.

Flop AK8 two suits.

Villain checks, I check.

Turn Tx (200)

Villain pots for 200, I call.

River 6x (600) Board is AKT86 two suits.

Villain shoves for what is 950 to me.

My questions

1) What, if any hand, do you take my line with on flop and turn.

2) What is the lightest hand you call with on river (regardless, not the lightest hand you'd check behind on flop and call river with).

I have a third question I'll ask after there's been some responses and I've revealed my hand.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

1) I'd check the flop with a set for sure. Only the flush draw could possible do me and even so, i have outs on turn. I'd be looking to let villian catch up on turn so get a reraise in and possibly commit him to go all-in.

Bacause you said villain can pot on turn with pure blaugh, i would be inclined to check Ax too, to extract on later streets. I would be betting Kx on flop to define my hand though, rather than have a difficult decision if bet into on the turn.

2) Lightest would be Ace rag, kicker 7 or greater. Im on the fence calling with Ace low kicker. Dont really want to call with a king in spot, not much i can beat. JQ scares me, King high kicker scares me, and of course Ace. only thing i can beat with a king is possible busted flush draw.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

i'm going to take your flop/turn line with weak aces and kings; against this opponent it gets 1 bet in against the widest range of his hands. significantly stronger hands would either have bet the flop or would raise the turn. weaker hands than second pair (excepting QT or JT) would fold to the turn bet.

i think i'd call the river shove with aces up or better


[ QUOTE ]
gutshot, nut flush draw and A pair draw

[/ QUOTE ]
from now on, any draw to the nuts which includes a gutshot shall be referred to as a "nutshot"

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

1) ace seven and better
a set
jack queen flush draw
queens maybe
2 pair

2) would call with

ace 5 and up
weakest....

i could see myself calling with a strong king here too.

Against opponests that are capable of turn/river bluffs i like to let them bet a lot of the time. Sometimes you know that weak aces here are golden, and although the flush draw here is scary, its worht letting it poss hit if he will bluff either way. Even if it does hit, we could use some blocking bets to try and seee a cheap showdown - or toss it in to any real strngth.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
from now on, any draw to the nuts which includes a gutshot shall be referred to as a "nutshot"

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant ;-)

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

1) i dont like min raising so maybe an education as to why a min riase is optimal in this spot.
2)your line reps an ace in my eyes. i think qj would raise the turn as it is unexpected, i would give you credit for qj if you would have bet the flop, i dont see you checking a draw behind. a king would have wanted to bet, as would an 8. a set is possible too, but less likely,imo.
3) what hands would you check behind, call the turn with a 10. A6+,kj+, pp 77+ possibly.
4) in your spot given the read on your opp. i would call A7+ waht could he be shoving? did he have qj? hit a set? i doubt in this spot he shoves the nuts more likely a see if you have an ace shove....and some bashing in the chat after he "expertly" tells you how badly you played

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) i dont like min raising so maybe an education as to why a min riase is optimal in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think min-raising is pretty common at the 25-50 level. with 25bb stacks, 3x bb raise seems to put to much into the pot before the flop.

Against passive opponents who won't play back at you, min-raising and then C-betting has alot of value. Agianst agressive opponents, you get value for your good hands preflop, and do not commit yourself on the flop if u miss

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

I'd call with Aces up or better.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

1) 2pair Kings up+ (less likely), a set (more likely), a straight (definitely).

2) Without reads on his river play, I'd say A9+, but it depends strongly on my feelings at the time.

I have a question:

What would you do to make villain to fold, had you air or a gutshot?

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
1)
I have a question:

What would you do to make villain to fold, had you air or a gutshot?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the turn I could get the most folds by raising.

I probably c-bet flop with air and fire 2 or 3 against this villain very often. I'd fold to a flop raise but otherwise I'm firing a lot of turns and some rivers as well against this guy when I have air.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

1) Bluff-catchers, I guess. So I'd say any pair up to Kx, maybe even a weak A.

2) Gah, I want more history before I have a definite answer to this. How does he view you? Is he just bitching out of frustration, or does he really think you're a fish?

How is his play? If he's somewhat aware, he has to put you on a weak hand and shouldn't be making a value bet like this. If he really is retarded, then he can v-bet like this.

Did the flush get there on the river?

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

No flush did not get there on river.

Earlier in the match during first blind level when he started berating me I asked if he wanted to do a 88/110/220 and he ignored me for a few hands before resuming his harassment. So he may view me as good or may just not want to play higher. He seems more focused on himself rather than me, I honestly am not sure what my image is here, slightly aggressive if not neutral. I doubt he thinks I'm a blufftard or tight ass but I think I've called him light once or twice in the match so far. I'll look for the HH tonight or tomorrow.

FWIW I wouldn't post this if I thought he were shoving a K or T here. I also would have been less likely to ask him to play higher if he made those types of plays irregularly.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

The best I can do is say it's either a dumbass v-bet or a frustrated bluff. I never know which. Flip a coin, I guess [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img].

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

So if that's your analysis you mean villain is only shoving with air or a monster hand? Then you'd have to widen your calling range, no?

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

He could take this line with any ace because your hand looks so weak. His range is obviously skewed more towards monsters and air, but you can't discount one pair.

Also, I don't think you can base your river calling range on his turn betting range (if that's what you're doing, I'm not positive what you meant). He's following through with all of his big hands, but not all of his bluffs.

You're getting like 1.7:1 here, so he has to be bluffing ~37% to make a call breakeven, right? That math is a really rough estimate, but I think it's in the neighborhood of correct. Based on that, I'd still flip a coin [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Ok I just found and looked through the HH.

Villain has checked OOP in same type of situation with a weak ace as top pair. checked the turn and minbet the river when I checked behind turn.

He's also checked down with top pair in another hand, not the same situation as the last two but he's definitely not value betting his pairs hard, regardless of TPTK or 2nd-3rd pair.

It's debatable if he does this with two pair on the turn, but that probably doesn't change our decision with a weak ace through QT type hands from being the same to different imo.

The strongest single pair I expect him to bet on the turn is probably like 99. Maybe a T. I know that sounds/is bad but he is a bad player. It's quite possible he won't bet anything stronger than an 8 here, but that's a very error prone statement. I would, however, wager that his best pair betting the turn is an 8 before I would wager that his best pair on the turn bet is a K. If that makes any sense.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

The more important question is not what he pot the turn with, but what does he pot the turn with and shove on the river. Seems like a confusing player. Is 79 conceivable or does he seem like the type that would try to desperately get a call out of you even if it means giving up tons of value by betting really small? He may be bad but he may be smart enough to realize he's been potting the turn everytime as a bluff and now he's going to do it with a real hand. Hence the continuation on the river (trying to make you think he's bluffing). I'm assuming the other times that he potted the turn and you called that he gave up on the river. He's obviously tilted and trying to be tricky and outplay you, so it's hard to figure out what's going through his crazed mind. Lots of typing with basically no conclusion. He's obviously usually really strong or pretty weak but I can't figure out how you would tell the difference.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Is it really that common for villian to shove the river, with much less than 2 pair here? If you've proven you fold reliably, perhaps he can do this light, but it seems unlikely. If he is starting to play push fold to go for a kill (early) I dump this one and look for a pattern.

I can't think of a hand I'd play this way that I can call with here past a set of 6's. Possibly think about calling with AT. I would give him 1 or 2 of these before I open my range up to TPGK. Doesn't seem like a good point to snap off a bluff.

Feels a little weak tight, but if I'm villian I'm almost always making a shove like this with AT or better, if you'll fold I'll up the frequency to include AQ type hands but at this point 1750 v 1250 I don't want to double you up by overplaying. I rarely check this flop in position after raising pf with out a monster so don't get here often.

Mike

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Results?

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

I had QQ.

I was two tabling and wasted a few seconds on the river when it was my turn to act in another hand on the other table, but I probably timed to like 8 before I called here.

I felt the call was fairly standard here, as I was pretty sure the turn is a bluff and the river doesn't fill much (there being no gutshots that hit the river was huge in my mind).

FWIW I believe it's a very easy call against this player if we're 15bbs deep and it's probably an easy fold 35ish bbs deep.

Oh, and he flipped over 66 for rivered trips [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

He sat with me a few games later, did not adjust on the reads I mentioned earlier and I took the game down fairly easily.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Another aspect of this hand is "but does he bluff the river here without hitting a hand?"

At the time I wasn't as sure on that read as I was on my turn read, but the way he is playing I can assume it's x% likely he's bluffing the river, and considering so few hands that bluff the turn hit the river there that x% can be knocked up a bit more.

I think I would've called with JT here, but probably not lighter. I see little difference between JT and AQ here.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

I dont like these threads, that is all.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like these threads, that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont hate

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

cwar don't like nobody

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
cwar don't like nobody

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you show him the $$$.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Also, I liked it and it seems others liked it so keep em comin.

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

Im a badass what can I say.
http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/5885/emothecatje0.jpg

Re: FTP 55 NLTRN River Decision vs Berating Semi-tard
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate these threads, that is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

NICE CAT!