Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

I thought it might be fun to do an in the well here. Maybe i can get thebryce to do one in a week or two.. I'll try to be as open as possible, but cannot promise I will answer every single question.

"A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except Wednesday, you can shout any question down that well and you'll be told the answer".

The man seems pretty impressed, and so he shouts down: Why not on Wednesday? and the voice from in the well shouts back: Because on Wednesday, it’s your day in the well."

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

How about a nice summary of your experiences moving from Limit to NL? There are some interesting discussions that pop up in the new Limit --> NL forum, and if you post a summary then we could get some good commentary and questions. I can beat the limit games online up through 15/30 (30/60 when I'm really feeling my Wheaties) and 100/200 live but can barely eek out a living at the Stars $200 NL after over 60k hands.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

I am always curious as how different players got into poker a brief description would be nice. Also How many hands were you able to log in the big crypto games and who did you think the best players in that game were?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Have you ever had a poker coach? If so, what did you learn from him/her?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about a nice summary of your experiences moving from Limit to NL? There are some interesting discussions that pop up in the new Limit --> NL forum, and if you post a summary then we could get some good commentary and questions. I can beat the limit games online up through 15/30 (30/60 when I'm really feeling my Wheaties) and 100/200 live but can barely eek out a living at the Stars $200 NL after over 60k hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

in 2005 and 2006 I actually played a lot of both. I was playing 100-200 LHE and wasnt always able to get that many games so I was also part of the generation of players that 8-12 tabled the party 10/20 games. MY screename there I think was miamia and I was able to log maybe 250k hands in that game. My first 100k hands I won 6ptbb/100, next 100k I won 1ptbb/100 and last 50k i don't remember really around 3 i guess.

If you are beating LHE at 15/30 I would *think* that you have the poker skills/thought process to beat 200NL, but there are a few different skills needed. Tilt control probably a bit more important in NL, as its both more tempting to get tilted and probably more costly on average when you do. It's possible variance has turned the wrong cheek to you as well (see my winrates above for party), but I would suggest grinding on your game and continueing to give both a shot until one or the other really becomes the clear choice.

as far as learning a new game, I simply grind on the math/pokertracker/hands and probably spend more time than most from that vantage point (though not near the type of grind leatherass has).

if i didnt really hit on what you were looking for let me know.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am always curious as how different players got into poker a brief description would be nice. Also How many hands were you able to log in the big crypto games and who did you think the best players in that game were?

[/ QUOTE ]

I started poker when I somehow found pokerroom online I think in 2003, I remember christmas of 2003 I think it was I was 4 tabling 25/50c at empire poker and thought it was great when i won 50 bucks or whatever. By the spring the party 15/30 was my main game and then the other dates that really stick out to me is march 2005 was my first 6 figure month and also the month I made 300/600 LHE my main game, and january 2006 was my first 250k month, a lot of it won playing 25/50 and 50/100 HUNL and 300/600LHE.

I played a lot at crypto and played approx 150-200k hands at the 150/300 pound game. Some of the best players there were bengt sonnert (pkrbt I think), juha helppi, steve95 (his real name is not steve and he is the nicest guy ever, i kept calling him steve anyways), tore lagerborg, todd witteles, forget his name, and honestly I can't really remember the others and don't have my DB to refer too (I might come back and edit in others if i remember them).

Crypto let ppl change screenames as much as they wanted so everybody had many names it seemed, except for me at the start. I almost always used miamia or stoxtradr there. Some of the guys I enjoyed playing with would have been sansone, he was a crackup, also spitter, lazysomething, marrakes, and I can't really remember the others also. I think some of the best NL players there were emile (he always had moviestar names I think), prikken, kirderf, mafews, durr played some, brian townsend played some, can't remember who else.

crypto had awesome customer support and I got to meet most of their team, such a shame the games there dried up and they can't allow americans anymore.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever had a poker coach? If so, what did you learn from him/her?

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than discussing hands over and over with 2+2 and now more often with friends of mine, I have never had a poker coach.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you are beating LHE at 15/30 I would *think* that you have the poker skills/thought process to beat 200NL, but there are a few different skills needed. Tilt control probably a bit more important in NL, as its both more tempting to get tilted and probably more costly on average when you do. It's possible variance has turned the wrong cheek to you as well (see my winrates above for party), but I would suggest grinding on your game and continueing to give both a shot until one or the other really becomes the clear choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say my problems are twofold:
1) firing continuation bets on the wrong boards, and not knowing when to fire a 2nd barrel
2) going broke postflop with AA and KK

I don't know which of the two problems is worse. Cumulatively they have probably cost me about the same amount, though problem #2 is certainly more dramatic.

Here's a sample of problem #2. In this hand I know that I didn't reraise enough preflop (not sure why not in hindsight), but I did end up taking the flop with a decent SPR of about 5. The button is a LAGTARD idiot. The SB is a TAG. My image sucks because the button got his big stack by stacking me three times - once with set over set, once with flush over flush, once when he outflopped my KK.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($1045.75)
SB ($265.50)
Hero ($212.80)
UTG ($13.10)
MP ($79.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $4</font>, SB calls $3, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $20</font>, UTG calls $11.10 (All-In), Button calls $16, SB calls $16.

Flop: ($73.10) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players, 1 all-in)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $60</font>, Button calls $60, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $245.5</font>, Hero vomits.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Hey Stox!

How do you think your former job has prepared you for becoming that good of a player and helped you to handle the step of going pro?

Did you ever have more than marginal psychological leaks? How did you get rid of these (doing yoga, reading books about psychology or s.th.)?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Het stox thanks for doing this, will you be writing a NL book and or another limit book?? A god thinking player who plays lets say 1/2 NL- 2/4 NL can expect to have approx what kind of ptbb?? Have games changed alot in limit and NL in the last yr since the usa ban?? Thanks

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

what do you think the games will be like in 2-3 years, and will there be more or less players.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Stox - loved the book of course, its the first ground-breaking work on limit hold'em in years. I refer to it quite often, both for myself and as a teaching aid.

Have you thought about writing a followup "workbook" style short handed book? Think Harington on Hold'em or How Good is your Limit Hold'em as the model.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Stox!

How do you think your former job has prepared you for becoming that good of a player and helped you to handle the step of going pro?

Did you ever have more than marginal psychological leaks? How did you get rid of these (doing yoga, reading books about psychology or s.th.)?

[/ QUOTE ]

trading stocks and playing poker have a lot of similarities, so I do think it helped. The biggest two reasons it helped though might be less common - I had the money to move up quickly without worrying about bankroll considerations, and I was used to 7 figure swings at my job, so whats a 5 figure swing? well, i guess one time its not my money and another it is, but I had plenty of experiences handling both big wins and losses and seperating luck from skill from clear decisions.

I think my mindset and risk attitude lends itself well to poker, if I ever did have any psychological leaks above say 5/10 LHE, I didn't know about it and still don't. My biggest leak currently might be playing a style in videos that I think makes for a better video but might not be the most +EV.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Het stox thanks for doing this, will you be writing a NL book and or another limit book?? A god thinking player who plays lets say 1/2 NL- 2/4 NL can expect to have approx what kind of ptbb?? Have games changed alot in limit and NL in the last yr since the usa ban?? Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

As too the books - both are possible, though not super likely at this point. Mason has tentatively agreed to either, but 2+2 always reserves the right to veto anything they think is of subpar quality. I think this is one way they keep the reputation of their books so high, but hopefully I have earned some room because of WITHG, and I think I have.

The problem is, I have lots of ideas that I think are very good for a NL book/series, but as of right now I haven't really started, other than fleshing out a short article for bluff magazine, and writing a good/complete book is a lot of work. I learned some from the WITHG process, but unfortunately not really any spots where I can "cut corners".

estimating winrates depends on more than just the player's ability level, it also depends a lot on the quality/quantity of the competition and the rake. I would *estimate* that at those levels the top 1% in skill level earn 5-7ptBB longterm, but hard to say as almost all of those top 1% would move up.

games have changed a lot in the past 3 years for sure and they will continue to evolve but aside from some room consolidation and a strengthening of the average player I think the games are still good and plentiful.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
what do you think the games will be like in 2-3 years, and will there be more or less players.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there will be a similar number of players with a similar player landscape. WE have competing forces of new players entering the market as they get older and lots of the world still growing, competing with US games slightly declining (my perception only, no idea if correct).

overall, I'm going to guess that stars will still be the leader and in 2 years will still have over 100k players online at peak times.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Stox - loved the book of course, its the first ground-breaking work on limit hold'em in years. I refer to it quite often, both for myself and as a teaching aid.

Have you thought about writing a followup "workbook" style short handed book? Think Harington on Hold'em or How Good is your Limit Hold'em as the model.

[/ QUOTE ]

*IF* I write a book, I am more likely to get a NL book going because I think there is a bigger void there for the stuff I have to say.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

top 5 shlhe players online today

also,

do you think that it's still possible to start at $1/$2 lhe and move up every 500bbs for each level and be able to make a living at $5/$10?
what do you think is the lowest level you could make a decent living at at LHE? assuming a $2,000 monthly nut.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

What do you think the is key component to success? (other than BR management, tilt control, etc.)

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
top 5 shlhe players online today

also,

do you think that it's still possible to start at $1/$2 lhe and move up every 500bbs for each level and be able to make a living at $5/$10?
what do you think is the lowest level you could make a decent living at at LHE? assuming a $2,000 monthly nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

SHLHE is tough to say, if you HU also counted I would have to include matt hawrilenko and thebryce in there. Other than that there really aren't any huge games that go with regularity, and I'm out of touch with the stars 100/200 and 200/400 games that i guess? are the biggest regular games on the net that include US players..

different people would probably definie "decent living" in different fashion, but if poker is your sole source of income I would hope you are pretty good at it. Making 2bb/100 at 5/10LHE means you make 20c/hand or 2k per 10k hands, playing 30-40k hands/month which seems reasonable + RB and bonuses you could make 6-10k/month, but you would need to be a very good player.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think the is key component to success? (other than BR management, tilt control, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ] there is no key component, but a mix is more important i think.

different players have done it with varyng degrees of strength in these areas:

innate intelligence
ability to tolerate/handle risk
work ethic
affinity for strategy games

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

What do you think the biggest difference is skillwise between someone being breakeven at 1kNL and someone beating 5kNL?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

what do you think is the lowest level you could make a decent living at at LHE? assuming a $2,000 monthly nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think the biggest difference is skillwise between someone being breakeven at 1kNL and someone beating 5kNL?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I can answer this. Overall poker ability?

a stronger combination/aptitude at the 4 characteristics I outline a few posts up?

only making 10 marginal plays out of 1000 instead of 25? or 1 bad play out of 1,00 instead of 3?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

what do you think is the lowest level you could make a decent living at at LHE? assuming a $2,000 monthly nut.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are getting at here or where my initial response was lacking. To answer completely one would have to define "decent living". From there it should be relatively easy to do the math. You might also want to allow for ROR or variance issues.

If you are asking this because it is an important question for you personally I would be happy to offer advice but would be better able to help if you could offer more details.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

When you play against an unknown, what are the first things you pick up? Esp. things like timing tells, bet sizes etc.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

crypto had awesome customer support and I got to meet most of their team, such a shame the games there dried up and they can't allow americans anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than Stars, what 3-4 sites do you think are the best to play on for 100-200 (limit hold'em) or above? (factoring in whatever you think is relevant, like amount of action or reasonable customer support or whatever)

I might get on Full Tilt but is there anything else you recommend? Is Crypto totally dried up now?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

you can make 2bb/100 at 5/10, but you have to press up up down down left right left right B A start first.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

What is your longest break even stretch at a mid stakes short handed lhe game?

What is your best non hold'em game?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

What are some of the major leaks you see in the average small stakes 2/4-10/20 SH lhe games when you make videos? I know a lot would depend on the site and seat/table selection but are there some general leaks you see over and over by the typical players?

You talked earlier about bankroll considerations when you started out and how you didn't have to depend on just your poker bankroll. I assume this helped and you moved out of the high-rake games fairly quickly? How important was taking shots and how did you manage that aspect of your game?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Hi Stoxtrader. Thanks for going into The Well.

What do you believe are the best poker books ever written? Which helped your game the most? Have you read Mathematics of Poker? If so, what did you think of it? Did it improve your game?

You are hosting a poker game. You may pick the number of seats and the stakes. You can choose to invite absolutely any person ever living or deceased and they will accept. Who do you invite and what stakes will you play?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
When you play against an unknown, what are the first things you pick up? Esp. things like timing tells, bet sizes etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

probably vpip, because that only takes 25 hands - I'm still a big believer in small sample stats because I think it's much more reliable than 1-2 single observatinos.

I do however take care to make sure and check showndown hands in showdown pots and often I can tell if a player is poor in 1-2 hands. (this is not something special, most can do it).

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

crypto had awesome customer support and I got to meet most of their team, such a shame the games there dried up and they can't allow americans anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Other than Stars, what 3-4 sites do you think are the best to play on for 100-200 (limit hold'em) or above? (factoring in whatever you think is relevant, like amount of action or reasonable customer support or whatever)

I might get on Full Tilt but is there anything else you recommend? Is Crypto totally dried up now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about crypto because i haven't checked in a long time (they are still noS as far as I know). If you can play party probably play there but I really hate their 5$rake. Other than that I think FTP and stars are the two main places.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
you can make 2bb/100 at 5/10, but you have to press up up down down left right left right B A start first.

[/ QUOTE ]

no, if you do that you can make 10bb/100 because it gives you a superuser acct. Well, only on absolute. nice nintendo reference.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is your longest break even stretch at a mid stakes short handed lhe game?

What is your best non hold'em game?

[/ QUOTE ]

breakeven stretch is tough. I haven't had a losing month in at least a year, I had 2 losing months in 2005 and I think 1 in 2006. I guess 45 days breakjeven maybe?

best non-holdem game would have to be Axis and Allies or Acquire! Honestly I'm pretty bad at anything non-holdem because I have never played anything besides LHE and NLHE

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
What are some of the major leaks you see in the average small stakes 2/4-10/20 SH lhe games when you make videos? I know a lot would depend on the site and seat/table selection but are there some general leaks you see over and over by the typical players?

You talked earlier about bankroll considerations when you started out and how you didn't have to depend on just your poker bankroll. I assume this helped and you moved out of the high-rake games fairly quickly? How important was taking shots and how did you manage that aspect of your game?

[/ QUOTE ]

most common leaks I see will probably remain standard forever - playing too many hands postflop and going to showdown too often - though many players are playing the second style well these days.

for moving up, I moved up to 15/30 without worrying about bankroll but did "prove to myself" I could play at each limit on the way up. This was a while ago but I'm pretty sure I logged 10-20k hands at each 5/10 and 10/20. Then 15/30 was the highest game I knew (this was before party added 30/60 and I didnt play the stars "restricted game). I don't really remember the move from 15/30 - 300/600 to be honest (I know, weird) but I think it was about a 9-10 month process from spring of 2004-march 2005, with a chunk of 100-200 play in between. fortunately, I ran well at 300/600 my first month there and never really got stung too too much with my first downswing approaching 100k well into my career there.

taking shots when you can/the games are good is VERY important, but its LESS important than protecting your bankroll if you have no other source of income. at that point, a dollar lost is worth more than a dollar won lots of times.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Stoxtrader. Thanks for going into The Well.

What do you believe are the best poker books ever written? Which helped your game the most? Have you read Mathematics of Poker? If so, what did you think of it? Did it improve your game?

You are hosting a poker game. You may pick the number of seats and the stakes. You can choose to invite absolutely any person ever living or deceased and they will accept. Who do you invite and what stakes will you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

best poker books (that I have read)

winning in tough holdem games herzog/grudzien
small stakes holdem miller
winning in low limit holdem jones (i read this a long time ago and it is very good for no foldem holdem)

I have read mathematics of poker and liked it. I think they can write a follow up APPLYING some of what they wrote about in volume 1, or they could work on solving HU LHE.

wow, poker game...I can go three ways with this.

1k/2k LHE

skywalker (rumored to be tony parker)
sansone (oil money?)
guy laliberte (spelling wrong, sorry founded cirque du soleil)
farha
elezra
spitter (crypto player no idea who)
nolazy (crypto player, italian i think)

These are all guys I would love to play with and meet, But I would need to be ready for some big swings!

table II 25/50c mixed game

thebryce
leatherass
stoxpoker CEO JIM
kyle cottonseed hendon
collin moshman
gbecks
poker toront
matt matros
actionbob
dmunnee

Table III LHE/NL 100/200 //// 25/50

matt hawrilenko
bill chen
jerrod ankenman
tore lagerborg
emile (matdamon on crypto)
kirderf (fredrik)
odd (prikken)

I'll probably add to this table if i come back to this post

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

Thanks Stox: I play for side-income as both the wife and I have nice jobs. Live in the Midwest where the cost of living is pretty good so my dilema is trying to grind 4 tables at the low stakes and just take my 1k-2k each month after rb/bonus etc.. and be happy or take shots higher and not cashout so often. I play on Absolute (still has the best benefits IMO for a low stakes limit player and I doubt any superuser acct would bother playing those stakes)

MY WR is about breakeven over 200k hands of 2/4-3/6 on a high-rake site. I have taken some shots but not near enough IMO. It just seems like I'm spinning my wheels at the lower limits and with high-rake , and a BBJ rake the games seem almost impossible to beat for a high WR at least at the lower stakes? Seems like I should probably reduce my tables from 4 to maybe 2-3 and play a little higher when the games are right and just keep some extra BR online?

What would you do if you were starting out in the low- stakes limit games today...just move over to No-limit?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

If online poker actually got doomswitched, would you be a live (gulp) pro?

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Stox: I play for side-income as both the wife and I have nice jobs. Live in the Midwest where the cost of living is pretty good so my dilema is trying to grind 4 tables at the low stakes and just take my 1k-2k each month after rb/bonus etc.. and be happy or take shots higher and not cashout so often. I play on Absolute (still has the best benefits IMO for a low stakes limit player and I doubt any superuser acct would bother playing those stakes)

MY WR is about breakeven over 200k hands of 2/4-3/6 on a high-rake site. I have taken some shots but not near enough IMO. It just seems like I'm spinning my wheels at the lower limits and with high-rake , and a BBJ rake the games seem almost impossible to beat for a high WR at least at the lower stakes? Seems like I should probably reduce my tables from 4 to maybe 2-3 and play a little higher when the games are right and just keep some extra BR online?

What would you do if you were starting out in the low- stakes limit games today...just move over to No-limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, high rake + BBJ is such a ripoff - party monster promo was outright stealing.

one reason you can get RB and bonsues is because of the rake.

I think you should (as I would if i was in same spot), step back and take a 100mile view of the overall quality of the games at the levels you play. are you able to often find 1-2 decent sized fish at each table you play? If the answer is no, I would start looking for alternatives. If yes, maybe examine my play - both are worth doing in any event.

taking shots are great when they work, but can be devestating if they don't so don't be so quick to do it on a light bankroll - it sounds like your curretn setup may be somewhat frustrating, but is actually a nice add to your overall quality of life...I guess what I'm saying is that it could be worse.

Re: Stoxtrader is \"In the Well\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
If online poker actually got doomswitched, would you be a live (gulp) pro?

[/ QUOTE ]

unequivically no. I might stop playing altogether. I jsut value my time at home to much to travel and we're not moving. No idea what I would do though, I guess work even harder on my golf game.