Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

I own a small poker room. We offer almost solely cash games, except for a once weekly tournament.

For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team. This last week was painful. 5 made it to the final 7. It was obvious they were not going to enter a large pot with one another. Their only goal was to eliminate the other 2.

Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately). What would be our best plan of action? What steps should the tournament director take?

Thanks,

Oscar

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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I own a small poker room. We offer almost solely cash games, except for a once weekly tournament.

For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team.

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Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately).

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Let's also assume that you have no business owning or operating a poker room.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Well if you can't stop them from playing there really isn't a lot you CAN do. I mean you can't penalize people for simply not playing big pots with each other. Since you didn't mention any actual collusion like talking during hands and such there isn't much. The big answer obviously would be to not allow them to play if that was an option.

What do you want to do? Force them to all go all-in against one another? Why can't you just not let them enter?

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

If you live in America you always have what I like to call the F U Rule - We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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Let's also assume that you have no business owning or operating a poker room.

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Also fair assumption.

Oscar

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

How do you know they soft play?

Inform them that soft playing will not be tolerated and if seen, caught or just giving management a reason to believe they are participating in soft play they will receive penalties. Say 10 minute time out for first offense / offender escalating up to 30 minutes and then possibly disqualification.

Don't forget to remind them that the decisions of management / floor are final.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

That's the problem, he doesn't "know" they're softplaying. Or he knows they are but there is no proof. It basically sounds like this so far: they're probably a lot better than a lot of the people playing...they know each other so they'd rather pick on bad players as long as they can...they're trying not to play big all-in pots with each other therefore OP doesn't like them.

I mean you can't FORCE them to play pots with one another. And you can't (well you can, but it would be stupid) to try to give them penalties simply because they don't play against each other. They're not even softplaying from the sounds of the OP, they're simply avoiding one another, that's not even against the rules.

You need to be able to point to a specific rules violation with proof of the violation in order to penalize people. (the real problem is that the decisions of the floor are NOT final if he doesn't even have the authority to keep them from playing)

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Well, if nothing else, you can split them up as much as possible to start (although from the description it doesn't sound like you start with a lot of tables).

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

I'm trying to get beyond the fact that he can't stop them from playing. If OP has no ability to enforce any rules.....well thats a whole different problem.

But he say's that they softplay so he must have some definition in mind and their play fits that definition. So describe to these players what they have done in the past and that it will not be tolerated in the future.

So assuming he has a definition of softplay that these players are violating and assuming he can enforce the rules and assuming he can explain to these players how their actions are in violation then I don't see a problem.

Maybe I assume to much.... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

another example of this, i played at a wsop circiut event this year. i was in a 1 table sng sat. husband and wife sat down and half way thru the wife checked down aces because her husband was in the hand. i was like wtf was that. she said what? i know how my husband plays. i dont know how you guys play. i said it dosent matter how we play, make his azz fold like everyone else.

theres no way she checks down aces to anyone else. friends are in the same boat they go soft on each other but agressive on the guys not in thier crew? what can we do?

patiently wait them out tell they make thier stupid mistakes?

donkism 101

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately). What would be our best plan of action? What steps should the tournament director take?

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1) Make sure that in your tournament rules is a rule stating "Checking down hands by agreement with one or more opponents is illegal"
2) Make sure you have a written set of rules available for all players participating.
3) As TD when you see the "gang of 7" entering your tournament scope out the tables in which 2 or more are playing and watch every hand they play together.
4) If they "soft play" a hand, make it clear to the dealer before the hand is over, that both hands must be turned over, even if one player attempts to muck his hand on the river.
5) If at any point one of the gang has the nuts vs. another member of the gang and fails to bet them by the river, show them the door immediately. Pick a time period and don't allow them to return. A time period of a month for a first offense seems reasonable to me.
6) If at any time, you think they are "soft playing" one another, based on your opinion - issue a penalty (time out). Escalate the penalties for subsequent offenses.

*) Note that it is reasonable for players to check down hands implicitly when one or more players is all-in.

If you do not stand up to these guys, they will end up being your only customers...

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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I own a small poker room. We offer almost solely cash games, except for a once weekly tournament.

For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team. This last week was painful. 5 made it to the final 7. It was obvious they were not going to enter a large pot with one another. Their only goal was to eliminate the other 2.

Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately). What would be our best plan of action? What steps should the tournament director take?

Thanks,

Oscar

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I don't see how it is that you can't ban them, but you think there is something else you can do. I don't see how there is something that can prevent you from barring them that wouldn't also prevent you from penalizing them or not letting them sit together.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

I think I understand the situation. I would say since it is a once a week thing either do away with the tournament, lower the buy-in, or make the antes larger than they should be relative to the blinds.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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For the tournament, we have recently had a group of 7 players consistently enter. These guys always soft play as a team. This last week was painful. 5 made it to the final 7. It was obvious they were not going to enter a large pot with one another. Their only goal was to eliminate the other 2.

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Why do you think this was the wrong strategy for them to take? What are the stack sizes? What's the bubble situation? What's the payout structure?

Why does the fact that 5 of them make the final table make you think they're cheating? This sounds like a home game where somebody found a soft tourney and shared it with his buddies.

I do not cheat in poker tourneys, but I thought the normal way to go about it was chip dumping to either help team members survive or to build a couple of monster stacks to compete for the big money. Softplaying just maintains the status quo.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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I do not cheat in poker tourneys, but I thought the normal way to go about it was chip dumping to either help team members survive or to build a couple of monster stacks to compete for the big money.

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I think tournament cheats try to keep their stacks as equal as possible. When they chip dump there are suddenly laying odds.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

I agree. Collusion is a very serious matter, not one you should go easy on. I'd ban all of them from entering again. They may try to whine and claim they're being unfairly singled out, but ...

The floor reserves the right to make any decision, regardless of the strict interpretation of the rules, in the interest of maintaining the fairness and integrity of the game.

Also, the floor can see any hand at any time. I'd have started looking at all these guys hands as soon as it was "painfully obvious."

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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*) Note that it is reasonable for players to check down hands implicitly when one or more players is all-in.


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Not the nuts though. If they check the nuts all the way down then it's bye-bye for one of them.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Preferential soft playing is collusion, not "maintaining the status quo." When you won't bet against your buddies, but you all play hard against the rest, you are cheating and should be banned. The status of the blinds, antes, bubble, clock, or payouts are irrelevant.

Poker is an every man for themself activity. A player should not be forced to play against groups employing teamwork tactics.

Fairness and integrity are not negotiable either. I always react harshly if these are violated.

Al

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

The issue here is the card room owner sure does hate to lose rake. They hate to lose rake in the tourny or the live action that follows or on other nights. They want to take rake from players if they are cheating or not. They still benefit from raking the game. They get so tied up in not offending anybody at any time (because of the rake they are after) that the game begins to slip. I've seen it with dealers also. They don't want to enforce basic rules on the good tipper. The infractions grow. Pretty soon your card room has a reputation that quietly spreads through out the local poker community. A reputation it deserves.

Collusion like "Lets check it down". The dealer should instamuck the person that said it. If the other player agrees prior to the dealer stopping the situation, that hand should be mucked too. There can be no debate about this. I would even consider ejecting them from the room on the spot, no finish. I've seen other posters say they would bar the player also. With that I have no argument.

Don't dance around the issue, don't give them a chance to "change a little" to avoid embarasing the card room manager with their more obvious moves. That's silly. You have to take decisive and firm action. Understand you should have never let this get started to begin with. This will make it even more uncomfortable to deal with now but that is the breaks. You have to protect your card room. You've identified a problem. Set and example that will be clearly understood by everybody. When you toss one of them (or all of them) out the door, there will be no misunderstanding about the integrity of your game and you as a person.

I've greatly reduced my play in "grey" card rooms. Make no mistake that is what we are talking about here. I love the regular action close to my home. But, the problem is these unregulated games are seldom run by anybody with the concern or the testicals to keep them clean. They end up dirty at one level or another. It starts to feel like wheel spinning to me. I want to learn to beat the best level players in the world. Not how to overcome cheaters, that's a waste of my time.

Dave

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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......Let's assume for certain reasons you cannot just ban these 7 from entering the tournament (unfortunately).....

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What do you fear? One of them will go to the police and end your game? One of them is a relative? They are fiends of other players you don't want to lose? You won't have enough players on other live nights to fill tables? What is it you fear? Why do you seek a way to coddle a cheater? They've got you right where they want you. Your compramising the control of your game if you cannot consider all options related to them. Who's game is it anyway?

Your posting rules isn't going to change the nature of thier integrity. The problem will still be there regardless of the placebo pill you pin up on the wall. If you can't bring yourself to act on it, then why embarass yourself by posting rules to begin with? You've got to start booting them out or you'll have no effect. The loss of thier game is the only threat that might have an impact on a few of them. However, it's hard for me to consider you can change the nature of a man. He's a crook or he's not oft'times.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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Don't dance around the issue, don't give them a chance to "change a little" to avoid embarasing the card room manager with their more obvious moves. That's silly. You have to take decisive and firm action. Understand you should have never let this get started to begin with. This will make it even more uncomfortable to deal with now but that is the breaks. You have to protect your card room.

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No need for this hardline on softplay. I don't think any poker room in the coutnry could stay in business if it tried to eliminate all forms of it. Softplay is like holding in football, it happens all the time and is just a question of how much the refs will tolerate.

I suggest the OP gradually escalate the actions taken against the team.

1. Post signs saying that no softplay or collusion is allowed.

2. Give verbal warnings at the table so everyone can hear.

3. Signal to dealers to expose hands when one of the blatant softpalys occurs so everyone can see.

4. Impose ten minute or so penalties on those who are found.

5. Suspensions for those who insist on their right to softplay.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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I do not cheat in poker tourneys, but I thought the normal way to go about it was chip dumping to either help team members survive or to build a couple of monster stacks to compete for the big money. Softplaying just maintains the status quo.

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Softplaying maintains the status quo in terms of number of chips for a number of players but they move up closer to or into the money every time somebody else is knocked off.

When I used to play Party Poker they had a lot of freerolls for WSOP entries. 3500 entrants with 50 making the semifinals. In the semis 3500 entries with 25 making the money (15 top prizes of $10,000). Because of the payout structure it was not uncommon to see entire tables towards the bubble of the tournament colluding by never making a bet. And this collusion was overt. You could watch the chat box at the table and see people laughing about laying down AA pre-flop. Party Poker took different approaches to dealing with it based on who was handling the complaint. In one tourney, nobody was penalized and I got an e-mail later stating that "no collusion took place - so there will be no penalties". In another tourney, all chat priviledges were immediately revoked at that table and because there was one holdout the table was not able to collude.

So in this guy's tourney, if the blinds escalate too quickly you could get situations where the final 8-15 guys would chop all prize money - making it profitable for 7 guys to slow play into that situation. There is a thread running right now asking about a 17 way chop at a tourney...

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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There is a thread running right now asking about a 17 way chop at a tourney...

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Link?

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Oscar, if I can read between the lines, you either have an illegal game, or the 7 have some inordinate influence on your clubs operations. Randy gave you the best options, but I think there might be one other route. Sit the 7 down and explain why its in everyones interests that you run an honest room, and explain why what they are doing is wrong and hurting the viability of their room. Then explain what you will be doing to prevent reoccurence.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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There is a thread running right now asking about a 17 way chop at a tourney...

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Link?

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That's not about soft play or collusion. It's just about the final 2 tables not wanting to do coinflips for huge blinds with everyone at less than 7XBB.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Here here to all posts following mine on the subject. Do something about it and keep at it and I'm happy as a customer of your room.

I've been the victim of end game open verbal collusion on two different occasions by the same player at my once favorite local card room. Great club, several live action tables every night, 20 to 50 player tourny's 5 nights a week. I was in heaven. But, the second time this happened on the bubble being victimized the the same player, I complained about it both times and the house did nothing each time. It won't happen a 3rd time. I won't be back. Funny thing is I brought about 15 players to this room over a couple of years, they won't get anymore from me. It's clear to me, if I don't shut up and take the screwing, my play was not welcome. You certainly must stand up for yourself in this game. I am still a bit tender about the experiance and maybe this is the cause of my strong feelings showing through in my posts.

To Rotter, do only chickens and bunnies make it to the final table? ;-)

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

1st question. Are you doing everything in your power to make sure these 7 are sitting at different tables during the tourney? Obviously it gets difficult as players get knocked out and tables close but if you can keep them as seperate as possible then they will be forced to win through their own abilities anyway. If you still get 5 of them at the final table then it could just be that they know how to play.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

Didn't read the whole thread but if you make the tournament winner take all then softplaying shouldn't be a very effective collusion strategy. If there are only a few dozen entries maybe this is viable?

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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Preferential soft playing is collusion, not "maintaining the status quo." When you won't bet against your buddies, but you all play hard against the rest, you are cheating and should be banned. The status of the blinds, antes, bubble, clock, or payouts are irrelevant.

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I agree that preferential softplay is cheating. How are you going to prove it? Many tournament players won't get involved in big pots with other big stacks if it's close to the bubble or a big prize jump. In this case, assume that the evil 5 all have 50 BB stacks while the 2 victims have 4 BB. Which one of the 5 is going to want to be the one who blows up and busts out when there are 2 guys on life support? You don't have to agree that these are good strategies, but you can't ban somebody because they play that way.

Hopefully if OP had some decent evidence of collusion like table talk or the guys splitting the money in the parking lot he'd have mentioned it. Until he gives me specifics of the collusion, I'm not going to assume it's going on. This is a guy who admitted in his second post in the thread that he didn't have any business running a card room.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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I agree that preferential softplay is cheating. How are you going to prove it?

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Fortunately running a cardroom is not like running a criminal court. You don't have to prove anything. If after watching these people play for several weeks the guy running the cardroom thinks they are cheating...they are probably cheating and it is reasonable for him to take action to stop them from continuing to cheat. He need not prove anything. Even if he is wrong and they aren'rt cheating, they are giving the appearance of cheating and that can be just as harmful.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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... Because of the payout structure it was not uncommon to see entire tables towards the bubble of the tournament colluding by never making a bet. And this collusion was overt. You could watch the chat box at the table and see people laughing about laying down AA pre-flop...

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This doesn't seem to be the same thing. Laying down AA with a medium stack on the bubble is good sattelite strategy.

I'd be more concerned with players donating to the shorties to keep them at the table.

Another form of collusion during a sattelite is for everyone to call a shorty's all-in and all checking down to the river. This increases the possibility that the shorty will bust out against the many opponents.

Re: Soft Play (Collusion) in Tournaments
 

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... Because of the payout structure it was not uncommon to see entire tables towards the bubble of the tournament colluding by never making a bet. And this collusion was overt. You could watch the chat box at the table and see people laughing about laying down AA pre-flop...

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This doesn't seem to be the same thing. Laying down AA with a medium stack on the bubble is good sattelite strategy.


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I did not give the complete story in my post. In the first case the chat at my table indicated that there was a table that was "colluding" by not playing a hand. So I monitored that table for over 45 minutes (until there were 50 players left and we had all made the semis). The chats exchanged at the "colluding" table were explicit about nobody playing a hand. And there were many of them. Every now and then somebody would say something like "I have KK I don't want to lay it down" and would get responses like "Just do it - we are all going to get into the semis". etc. etc. etc. In the entire time I watched the table, not one player called or raised.

In a second incident, the chat was explicit in trying to recruit everyone at the table to soft play by never calling and raising. There were at least 3 or 4 players actively trying to convince all others to join in. By the time I had contacted Party Poker there was only one guy who didn't want to do it. And my guess is that if Party Poker hadn't shut off the chat for those 3 or 4 players, the last holdout would have been targetted for removal by at least the organizers so they could get on with their cake walk into the semis.

In all, over a 4 week period of time, in roughly 30 of these tourneys I saw this happen at least 4 times - in one case two different tables were doing it in the same tournament.

The funny thing was that one of the tables broke. In those tourneys Party Poker would break tables in reverse numerical order - so if you were on Tables 1-5 you were guaranteed of not breaking. I could see it coming and then was rewarded by one of the organizers landing on my table. He tried to organize our table to collude as well. Aside from calling him a cheater I told him I was actively trying to get him thrown out of the tournament. A few minutes later his chat was turned off and some of the other players started wondering why the guy was no longer "talking". Needless to say it was very satisfying to see him bust out.