Inducing a bluff
 

Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

raising river would not be real smart if u think about it

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

This is called the Josh W play.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

can you either fold to a c'r on the turn or get c'rd by a worse hand?

b/c to me sb looks like a weak ace, a small pair or a 5 (Assuming the sb isn't aggressive but just weak/tight).

i think this might not be the place to induce since you have a good amount of value to get if he'll call down w/ a pair / ace.

but it really just depends on the sb. how passive is he/she?

how tight? (would he/she fold a low pair now?)

if the sb is the right kinda person (where a c'r isn't easy to play against) then inducing is fine.

Barron

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

Do you give up when you have JTs?

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

The play works much better online than live, and only if you check behind without an Ace.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

Im betting all my weak hands here so I want to be betting my strong hands too. If I was going to check behind here it would either be with KQ or KK.

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raising river would not be real smart if u think about it

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noooooo limit hold'em

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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If you don't think he has anything, why raise the river? If you think he has a 5, why raise the river? If you think he has an ace, why not bet the turn?

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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No chance metagame in this spot is as important as the immediate EV.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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No chance metagame in this spot is as important as the immediate EV.

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No chance that there's enough EV to be gained by checking behind in a live game here to make up for the admittedly small gains you have in EV by playing Ax the same as JTs.

Rob

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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If you don't think he has anything, why raise the river? If you think he has a 5, why raise the river? If you think he has an ace, why not bet the turn?

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if we check behind and raise most rivers:

if he has an ace, we make the same (unless villain would cr, but we lose less if he has AK)
if he has KQ, or something, we gain 1 bet from his bluff
if he has a five, we may lose less, because we might have to calldown a turn CR and payoff river, whereas we should be able to fold to a river 3bet methinks

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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No chance metagame in this spot is as important as the immediate EV.

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right, and PJ doesn't put in enough hours for this to matter anyway

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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No chance metagame in this spot is as important as the immediate EV.

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right, and PJ doesn't put in enough hours for this to matter anyway

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Live I think it's pretty easy to get the image quickly of being "that guy" -- the one that raises and raises and raises and bets every scare card. When "that guy" checks behind here on a scare card on this board, it's pretty unrealistic for him to hope to gain 2 extra BB on the river. Just MHO of course but I'm not judging this as they judge it, I'm just trying to balance my play and earn the most when they have weak hands that they'll convince themselves to call down with, and honestly on this board there are more hands that can call a turn bet and fold to a river bet or call both than will bet-call the river.

Rob

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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This is called the Josh W play.

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It is? When/where did he say this? Sure you aren't mixing it up with his c/r the river when you whiff a turn, c/r?

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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This is called the Josh W play.

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It is? When/where did he say this? Sure you aren't mixing it up with his c/r the river when you whiff a turn, c/r?

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Justin has broke his vow of silence.

I do both of these things, a lot. And, by "a lot", I certainly do not mean "with optimum frequency".

In PJs hand, I don't raise the river all the time, either.

The reason why I started doing this all the time a few years ago is that I play with a bunch of regulars all the time. By checking this turn with strong hands, it made it so I never have to pay off with a hand like QQ, but I also get to valuebet it on the river (and 44 will call).

I think it's the type of play that has a lot more benefit if you play in a game where everybody knows you fairly well.

Josh W

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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I don't know I'm missing some inside joke, but yes I check behind a lot of hands that totally miss here too.

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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I don't know I'm missing some inside joke,

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You aren't. DD actually checks here too and was just passing out hearts that day to all his loving friends. (yes, I asked him about this. no, I didnt ask why i didnt get one. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])

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but yes I check behind a lot of hands that totally miss here too.

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You should fire on this card w/JTs. You are missing pots against folders here. (folders include TAGs)

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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Which night was this? I was there this weekend playing in the 40 on both Friday and Saturday? I was curious which game you got moved to that was so good... maybe we played together? The game I was in was absolutely dynamite--unlike any game I have played in before. 4-5-6 ways for multiple bets pre-flop all the time. 3-4-5 players consistently CC'ing preflop. Couldn't believe how good the game was!! Just curious?

As far as this hand goes: I am not sure I see the value here? Do you think the player has a worse ace on the turn? If so he pays off both streets. If he has a five you save money b/c 3 bets probably don't go in on river unless the player is full. If you put him on a pair of some sort--Are you thinking that a check on the turn will get him to lead the river thus gaining a bet and possibly two b/c he will make a confusion call?

If that is the case then it does make sense, but I think it is outweighed by the bet you might be missing from someone with a worse A? Curious to hear your thoughts!

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You should fire on this card w/JTs.

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Sometimes I do.

I think the point of the thread is that it seemed to me a paired board like this is a better board to make this play, since a free card to an 8 hurts me a lot less (as he's drawing to 2 outs as opposed to 5), overcards are folding to a bet, and I'm basically WA of most hands and WB the hands that are beating me.

I guess it's true that raising the river wouldn't be a good idea, and had the hand transpired in the way I planned who knows if I'd have come to that realization before I put the 16 chips in... but I do think that we shouldn't be auto-betting this A here when we have a chance to make another $80 off a player who's drawing dead or to 2 outs.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Do you give up when you have JTs?

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No chance metagame in this spot is as important as the immediate EV.

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No chance that there's enough EV to be gained by checking behind in a live game here to make up for the admittedly small gains you have in EV by playing Ax the same as JTs.

Rob

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FWIW I wasn't arguing that this is a clear check, I was just saying I think we need to worry about the immediate EV rather than the metagame.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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If you don't think he has anything, why raise the river? If you think he has a 5, why raise the river? If you think he has an ace, why not bet the turn?

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PokerBob--

If you don't think this is a persuasive argument, why post it? If you do think this is a persuasive argument, why not post in Beginners?

Justin--

You're right on in this thread, as usual.

Joker--

I think you should bet this turn, just because it looks like such an autobetting card. Your hand is so strong that a checkraise isn't even such a nasty possibility. I admire your creativity here, and maybe I'm misinterpreting what the relevant ranges are here, but even under the conditions you describe I think this is a bet. (And I think someone should make explicit the elementary obvious point that even a relatively harmless free card still carries a little bit of danger.)

--Nate

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

I sometimes play this hand this way when I'm OOP as opposed to in position. I.e. I open with AK, one caller on the button.

Flop is 8-8-2. I bet, he thinks and calls. Turn is A, I check-call.

I think it works better OOP because you're often not going to lose a bet, whereas in position you automatically lose 1 BB on the turn if he has anything.

But I only do this in tight, tough tables where it's hard to scratch out any profit.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

No need to overthink this one, bet the turn.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

golferbrent- this table(bad game) was 2nd row away from the board along the walkway. When that game moved we both got moved to 3rd table along walkway(sick game), which contained spaztard indian guy in seat1, blitzed meathead fratboy tool in seat 9.

btw, I liked this play , given the dynamic of the table and the villain at the time.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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No need to overthink this one, bet the turn.

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I agree... I think most likely he was peeling the flop with an inferior ace or an underpair to the board. I see players at commerce do this ALL the time with a hand like 33, 66, 77 in this spot. They want to see that the turn is a "safe-card" before they check raise or lead bet the turn. Obviously the ace on the turn was not said "safe-card".

However.... one thing to consider is that you lose value if he has a hand like AJ-A9 and you check the turn... however... one benefit is the following.

By checking the turn I think you induce a crying call on the river by ANY pair if it's checked to you. Sticking with my same example from above. Player calls your preflop late position raise with 66... flop looks safe, but they are kind of weak and want to see a safe turn.

Turn is an ace... they hate it and plan to fold the turn to your bet. BUT, now you check. River, comes a blank... they still don't like their hand but don't have the balls to bet it. They check, you bet... they talk themselves into a crying call because in their eyes you "gave-up" on the turn and must have two other unpaired broadway cards. I don't know if you know the Korean John Smith that plays at commerce every day, but he pulls this play off to perfection. Someone people are always making crying calls to him on the river after he checked the turn. It works for him :-)

This is the only place I see this play gaining value...

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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If you don't think he has anything, why raise the river? If you think he has a 5, why raise the river? If you think he has an ace, why not bet the turn?

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PokerBob--

If you don't think this is a persuasive argument, why post it? If you do think this is a persuasive argument, why not post in Beginners?


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I'm not sure what argument you are referring to. (Maybe there is a post I missed by reading in flat mode or something?)

I merely asked a few questions that IMO one should be asking when they find themselves in this spot. PJ does not give any read on this guy, so I am assuming he is unknown. Doing anything other than checking the turn and calling the river vs. an unknown in this spot is absurd IMO.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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golferbrent- this table(bad game) was 2nd row away from the board along the walkway. When that game moved we both got moved to 3rd table along walkway(sick game), which contained spaztard indian guy in seat1, blitzed meathead fratboy tool in seat 9.


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As well as fishy wool-cap guy in seat 7.

Which game were you in, brent? The only other good table was the one Sailboats was at (Pete Sampras-looking kid in seat 9) and that had a bigtime LAG getting a massage in seat 4 and some old white guy in seat 6 in a red sweater.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

I was playing with that wool cap guy at the same table the night before. He most likely was playing for 24+ hours. I value-checked the turn and called a river bet on a 682KJ board with 77 and had to hear about how i should have folded and he could of easily had me beat.

PJ-- there was also a fishy guy in seat 1 who is a NL regular trying out some limit(cold calling machine). And you must try and keep my identity a secret [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

How often do you check here honestly?
And what is you're hand range if do?

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

situational play, u know the players, so it's ur decision.
just a thought, imo inducing a bluff works better when u didn't improve ur hand, check the turn in position and then call a river bet. after the turn, ur hand is much easier to induce a bluff on the turn (if he had an ace he'll raise u when u bet, and call u down w/ any pair anyways assuming he's the type of pay-off-wizard who would pay off ur river raise) raising the river there is too "tricky" of a play for limit, missing value on the turn and underestimate ur opponent (of course u r the only one that knows the opponent)'s folding ability. if u think he has an ace in that spot (assuming he'll call ur river raise), y not bet both turn and river in position instead of risking not getting called on the river raise?

oops this is replied to OP, new to forums

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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OK, I'm rusty as hell but what does the J or T have to do with anything?

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(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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OK, I'm rusty as hell but what does the J or T have to do with anything?

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AJ/AT

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

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OK, I'm rusty as hell but what does the J or T have to do with anything?

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AJ/AT

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Meh, I thought of that and it made less sense when I first read the post and thought the SB folded and BB called. I've reread.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Doing anything other than checking the turn and calling the river vs. an unknown in this spot is absurd IMO.

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that is easily the worst possible line

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

Sometimes people try and get needlessly fancy. I think Bet-Bet line works well for this situation.

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Commerce 40/80. Game is playing very very tight and it's not that great, but we're about to break (and unbeknownst to me I'm about to move to an awesome game for the last 2 hours of the night).

Folded to me in the CO, I open AQ. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop 855. Check, I bet, he calls.
Turn A. He checks, I check?

(Plan is for him to bet the river and I raise any card that isn't an 8, T, or J.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't think he has anything, why raise the river? If you think he has a 5, why raise the river? If you think he has an ace, why not bet the turn?

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PokerBob--

If you don't think this is a persuasive argument, why post it? If you do think this is a persuasive argument, why not post in Beginners?


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I'm not sure what argument you are referring to. (Maybe there is a post I missed by reading in flat mode or something?)

I merely asked a few questions that IMO one should be asking when they find themselves in this spot. PJ does not give any read on this guy, so I am assuming he is unknown. Doing anything other than checking the turn and calling the river vs. an unknown in this spot is absurd IMO.

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PB--

Sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it seemed unlikely that was anything other than an implicit argument. Otherwise you're just asking, "hey, have you considered that maybe he caught a piece of the board?"

I think your line vs. an unknown doesn't get near enough money in the pot. I think that you should bet the turn, and if you get raised I'd three-bet a lot of guys live. Maybe not as a standard thing, but it should be considered. He can even be c/r'ing worse for value.

--Nate

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

Yeah I played with that wool cap guy earlier... he was leaving Commerce when I was checking out on Sunday at like 3:30... I started playing with him on Friday in the 20 before moving to the 40... assuming he was older and wore glasses as well.

I was on 137... the closest table to the night club up by the cashier. Game was out of this world!! Had a guy playing that dumps 4 dimes and had never played hold'em before. Watched him call 160 cold on turn with gut shot st8 draw with paired board--drawing dead. Best was when he called all the way with no draw at all with 6-4o trying to make a common pair!! He goes busto--and politely thanks the table for the good time and leaves!! Then on Saturday evening--guy comes in--Armenian I believe--waiting for the 1-2--first up, but gets impatient and has floor start a 2-4 list. While waiting, steams off 2 racks in about 45 minutes, rebuys another rack and steams off most of it before I quit in another 45 minutes. I beat him every pot--very much fun!

Re: Inducing a bluff
 

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Doing anything other than checking the turn and calling the river vs. an unknown in this spot is absurd IMO.

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that is easily the worst possible line

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please explain.