Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/i...=22&sp=true

Cliff notes: British teacher and her class name a teddy bear Mohammad, mobs form in Sudan demanding that she be killed.

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

Dude,

Even I don't think that an apt example. Regardless of whether there are some street rabble demanding action, the leaders didn't act on that. Instead she got 15 days and deportation.

For better examples see the treatment of foreign servants in Saudi Arabia.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

I don't think most people believe we need to leave the Muslim world alone. There are options besides leaving them alone and bombing them to death.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

This example seems to only support the argument to stay the [censored] out of their countries. Like the charity workers who get their heads chopped off should learn.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

If anything, this affair improved my opinion of the Sudanese government. Of course it's a terrible perversion of justice and a gross violation of human rights, but at least they didn't rape and murder her.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, if we had "left them alone," and stopped sending charities and people over there to "help" them, this teacher wouldn't have been there in the first place and this wouldn't have been an issue.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

Seems like a solid reason to go kill Muslim babies with bombs imho!

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

Who doesn't name their bear Mohammad?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to rethink this post. Also, maybe rethink what you think moral relativism means?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, if we had "left them alone," and stopped sending charities and people over there to "help" them, this teacher wouldn't have been there in the first place and this wouldn't have been an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah why we just leave Sudan alone so the islamic extremists who control the government can be left alone to continue their oppression and killing of those who practice other religions in Darfur.

And how cruel indeed to "force" a fat unattractive middle-aged western teacher on them. Oh the injustice!

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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[ QUOTE ]

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, if we had "left them alone," and stopped sending charities and people over there to "help" them, this teacher wouldn't have been there in the first place and this wouldn't have been an issue.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah why we just leave Sudan alone so the islamic extremists who control the government can be left alone to continue their oppression and killing of those who practice other religions in Darfur.

And how cruel indeed to "force" a fat unattractive middle-aged western teacher on them. Oh the injustice!

[/ QUOTE ]

She's more than welcome to go there. If you go into a lion's den don't start bitching when they maul your ass. Also, feel free to go and defend those you care about in Darfur.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to rethink this post. Also, maybe rethink what you think moral relativism means?

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he's forgiving an immoral action because of historical differences... moral relativism

from wiki-

[ QUOTE ]
In philosophy, moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect objective and/or universal moral truths, but instead make claims relative to social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in this case the women involved is being sent to prison for 15 days for naming her bear Mohamed. Which seems just as irrational to me as getting in a lather if a person of a certain race dosnt sit at the back of the bus.

Btw does 100 lashes for being raped = being killed by police officers and dumped in a swamp for encouraging people of a certain race to vote?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in this case the women involved is being sent to prison for 15 days for naming her bear Mohamed. Which seems just as irrational to me as getting in a lather if a person of a certain race dosnt sit at the back of the bus.

Btw does 100 lashes for being raped = being killed by police officers and dumped in a swamp for encouraging people of a certain race to vote?

[/ QUOTE ]

meh... The swamp thing is an isolated case. The lashings for rape is a policy from the highest level of government.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us.

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What we actually believe is that initiating violence is wrong. Make peace with them, give them back their land and settle things, and see what happens. If, after this, they initiate violence on us, then it will be legitimate to attack them and not before.

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But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, no. Protesting rhetoric != doing. By this logic, anyone who protests "down with Bush" should be treated as if they've actually assaulted the president and hanged for treason. Then again, maybe you actually believe this.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in this case the women involved is being sent to prison for 15 days for naming her bear Mohamed. Which seems just as irrational to me as getting in a lather if a person of a certain race dosnt sit at the back of the bus.

Btw does 100 lashes for being raped = being killed by police officers and dumped in a swamp for encouraging people of a certain race to vote?

[/ QUOTE ]

meh... The swamp thing is an isolated case. The lashings for rape is a policy from the highest level of government.

[/ QUOTE ]
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6085/swamprp0.png

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

In 1944, 13% of Americans wanted to "kill all Japanese" and in December 1945 22% wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more" atomic bombs before Japan had a chance to surrender.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How long ago was it that the idea that a black women didnt have to sit at the back of the bus could cause moral outrage in parts of the USA?

Not that long ago. Some parts of the world are slightly behind the curve of progress.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow moral relativism ftw...

a lot of islamic society (not UAE for example, but saudi arabia) is basically in the dark ages. back of the bus != 100 lashes for being raped.

that being said, this isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

[/ QUOTE ]

You might want to rethink this post. Also, maybe rethink what you think moral relativism means?

[/ QUOTE ]

he's forgiving an immoral action because of historical differences... moral relativism

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How'd you get "forgiving an immoral action" out of TOAFK's post?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 1944, 13% of Americans wanted to "kill all Japanese" and in December 1945 22% wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more" atomic bombs before Japan had a chance to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]


In 1937 the Japanese wanted to rape and pillage Nanking and they did. So I think the Chinese of that era would probably have had attitudes similar than the americans, if not more so.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 1944, 13% of Americans wanted to "kill all Japanese" and in December 1945 22% wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more" atomic bombs before Japan had a chance to surrender.

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Even if that statistic is true (of course you don't bother citing a source) and 13% of Americans literally wanted to kill every single living Japanes person, which highly doubtful, that is still a terrible comparison. Do you think being outraged at a country that literally raped and murdered tens of millions is comparable to being outraged over a bear named Mohammad?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

"The Chinese lost approximately 3.22 million soldiers. 9.13 million civilians died in the crossfire, and another 8.4 million as non-military casualties. According to historian Mitsuyoshi Himeta, at least 2.7 million civilians died during the "kill all, loot all, burn all" operation (sanko sakusen) implemented in May 1942 in North China by general Yasuji Okamura and authorized on 3 December 1941 by Imperial Headquarter Order number 575.

Chinese sources list the total military and non-military casualties, dead and wounded, of the Chinese were 35 million. Most Western historians believed that the casualties were at least 20 million."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_women

"Comfort women or military comfort women is a euphemism for the women who were forced into sexual slavery for Japanese military brothels during World War II. Around 10,000 - 200,000 are estimated to have been procured, but there is still some disagreement about exactly how many women were. However, historians and researchers have stated that the majority were from Korea, China, but women from the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, the Dutch East Indies, Indonesia, and other Japanese-occupied territories were also involved in "comfort stations". These stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, the then Malaya, Thailand, the then Burma, the then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and the then French Indochina. Young women from countries under Japanese imperial domination were were reportedly abducted from their homes against their will, while in some cases women were also recruited with offers of work in military canteens and factories and subsequently forced to sexual service. It has been documented that the Japanese military itself recruited women by force."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

"Special Japanese military units conducted experiments on civilians and POWs in China. One of the most infamous was Unit 731. Victims were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia, amputations, and were used to test biological weapons, among other experiments. Anesthesia was not used because it was considered to affect results. In some victims, animal blood was injected into their bodies.

To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim’s upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments."

", a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture." According to Rummel, in China alone, during 1937-45, approximately 3.9 million Chinese were killed, mostly civilians, as a direct result of the Japanese operations and 10.2 millions in the course of the war.

The most infamous incident during this period was the Nanking Massacre of 1937-38, when, according to the findings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, the Japanese Army massacred as many as 430,000 civilians and prisoners of war, although the accepted figure is somewhere in the hundreds of thousands. Similar crime was the Changjiao massacre. In Southeast Asia, the Manila massacre, resulted in the deaths of 100,000 civilians in the Phillipines and in the Sook Ching massacre, between 25,000 and 50,000 ethnic Chinese in Singapore were taken to beaches and massacred."

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

So we should drop "many more bombs" on them?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

Okay, I get it, Americans are evil, blah, blah, even though we stopped two Holocausts and helped transform Germany and Japan into civilized countries despite the atrocities that they committed.

How many other countries have won wars without demanding territorial gain and spent their own money rebuilding the countries that attacked them?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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Okay, I get it, Americans are evil, blah, blah, even though we stopped two Holocausts and helped transform Germany and Japan into civilized countries despite the atrocities that they committed.


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I remember reading about this. Germany and Japan lived in caves, had no language and ate all their meats raw. The United States civilized them. I believe it was a project code named "Henry Higgens."

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

The United States has at least one "Islamo-facist" nation as it's ally already with it's support of Saudi Arabia. Doesn't seem like the current administration is too anxious to help dump that regime.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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How many other countries have won wars without demanding territorial gain and spent their own money rebuilding the countries that attacked them?

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There's quite a bit of American "territory" on Japanese soil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Japan

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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This isn't an example of why we need to fight islamo-facism. If you want to make that argument, talk about Iran, Syria and Sudan's macro-policies, not local events.

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The profound ignorance of most advocates of war should not astonish. It's part and parcel of the way of thinking that leads one to advocate war as the solution for most problems.

FYI, dear sir, Syria is NOT a nation ruled by islamic law. FYI, Syria, exactly like Saddam Hussein's Iraq (ah, those were the days) has consistently and actively opposed muslim fundamentalism. The Ba'athist regime of Syria (as did the Ba'athist regime of Iraq - ah those were the days!) chased and kept in line its islamic fundamentalists.

Syria can be accused of many things but not "islamo-fascism".

Anyway, you're not supposed to know this -- and you don't. All is well in the world.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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How many other countries have won wars without demanding territorial gain and spent their own money rebuilding the countries that attacked them?

[/ QUOTE ]Don't be naive.

Every country in the world, big or small, and including the United States, is after advancing its own interests.

Grow some talleyrands in your neocortex.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
In 1944, 13% of Americans wanted to "kill all Japanese" and in December 1945 22% wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more" atomic bombs before Japan had a chance to surrender.

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This doesn't surprise me, horrify me, or in any way change my opinion regarding the goodness and greatness of America.

I think we would both agree that the fighting in the Pacific was vicious, and that 13 or 22 percent of Americans would answer this way in response to a poll is in no way surprising or indicative of our national character or will.

The reality was that we managed the postwar peace in such a noble and enlightened way that forty years later Japan was bombarding us with Toyota and Honda autos instead of high tech weapons and 62 years later let some of us (i.e., Boston) to employ two Japanese citizens named Matsuzaka and Okajima to win another World Series.

~ Rick

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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Okay, I get it, Americans are evil, blah, blah, even though we stopped two Holocausts

[/ QUOTE ]

So that makes us +1?

Of course, it's not like we set out to stop any holocausts, just happened accidentally on the way, but the one we caused was definitely intentional, so... yeah, definitely not even +1.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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In 1944, 13% of Americans wanted to "kill all Japanese" and in December 1945 22% wished the United States had had the opportunity to use "many more" atomic bombs before Japan had a chance to surrender.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't surprise me, horrify me, or in any way change my opinion regarding the goodness and greatness of America.

I think we would both agree that the fighting in the Pacific was vicious, and that 13 or 22 percent of Americans would answer this way in response to a poll is in no way surprising or indicative of our national character or will.


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I agree 100%. Just like the people who are so bloodthirsty to "actively fight Islamo-facism" are in no way surprising or indicative of our national character or will.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

Im surprised nobody updated this.

Factions within the Sudan are calling for her execution. Factions in the Sudan don't talk out loud unless the Sudanese government are sympathetic to their message.

Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im surprised nobody updated this.

Factions within the Sudan are calling for her execution. Factions in the Sudan don't talk out loud unless the Sudanese government are sympathetic to their message.

Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

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highly unlikely that is supported by the government. They're the ones that cut her sentence to 15 days in an attempt to appease both sides.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Im surprised nobody updated this.

Factions within the Sudan are calling for her execution. Factions in the Sudan don't talk out loud unless the Sudanese government are sympathetic to their message.

Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

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highly unlikely that is supported by the government. They're the ones that cut her sentence to 15 days in an attempt to appease both sides.

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There is a difference between "sympathetic" (belief) and "supported" (overt). You can be sure that one of the most savage and corrupt governments in the world is sympathetic, or their non-support would have been quite visible by now.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, he lives in Atlanta teaching at Emory.

UPDATE:
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im surprised nobody updated this.

Factions within the Sudan are calling for her execution. Factions in the Sudan don't talk out loud unless the Sudanese government are sympathetic to their message.

Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

[/ QUOTE ]

Updated: and here for your reading pleasure are excerpts about the crowd:

"KHARTOUM, Sudan (AP) - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and swords and beating drums, burned pictures of a British teacher Friday and demanded her execution for insulting Islam by letting her students name a teddy bear Muhammad...

Many in the protesting crowd shouted "Kill her! Kill her by firing squad!"...

Protesters dismissed Gibbons' claims that she didn't mean to insult the prophet.

"It is a premeditated action, and this unbeliever thinks that she can fool us?" said Yassin Mubarak, a young dreadlocked man swathed in green and carrying a sword. "What she did requires her life to be taken."

...several thousand people converged on Khartoum's Martyrs Square, near the presidential palace, and began calling for Gibbons' execution. Many seemed to be from Sufi groups, religious sects that emphasize reverence for the prophet.

Some angrily denounced the teacher, but others smiled as they beat drums and burned newspapers with Gibbons' picture, waving swords and clubs and green banners, the color of Islam...

Chants of "Kill her!" and "No tolerance: Execution!" rang out as hundreds of police in riot gear stood by, keeping the crowd contained but not moving against the rally."

AP article

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

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Anyone seen Salman Rushdie around lately?

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Yes, he lives in Atlanta teaching at Emory.

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You miss the point.

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/i...=22&sp=true

Cliff notes: British teacher and her class name a teddy bear Mohammad, mobs form in Sudan demanding that she be killed.

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

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If you went out and fought everybody that WANTED to hurt you would be dead. Please factor in the chances that they atually are able to do anything to you.

There are millions of people in jail that would rob you or hurt you IF THEY COULD, are you going to fight all of them as well?

Re: Perfect example of why we need to actively fight Islamo-facism
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/i...=22&sp=true

Cliff notes: British teacher and her class name a teddy bear Mohammad, mobs form in Sudan demanding that she be killed.

There seem to be a lot of people in this forum who believe that if we just leave the Muslim world alone they'll stop attacking us. But do you really expect people who are willing to kill someone for merely naming a teddy bear Mohammad are going to just leave us alone? Of course not. These people are completely irrational and are bent on destroying Western civilization as we know it.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you went out and fought everybody that WANTED to hurt you would be dead. Please factor in the chances that they atually are able to do anything to you.



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Tell it to the families of the 215 colleagues of mine that died on 9/11.