Starting out in Limit
 

So I would like to try to at least learn some limit poker even though I've said in the past that I hate it.

I tried some today and is it basically standard to call down with any pair or draw and just see who lucks out? I understand the odds, they are really easy to figure out, but the trash some people are playing is just unbelievable to my no limit mind. I am having an awful tough time figuring the thought process out here, frankly because there doesn't seem to be one.

Example: Hero dealt QQ

Folds to SB who completes, Hero raises, SB calls

Flop: JT2r

SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

Turn: 5

SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls

River: 4

SB bets, Hero raises, SB raises, Hero calls

SB shows T4o

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] I ran into this kind of play over and over again on Full Tilt 0.25/0.50. I just really don't understand what is going through the other players' heads and putting them on a hand seems impossible.

How did you guys start to learn limit?

Re: Playing Limit
 

Yea the suckouts are unbearable at times but believe it or not they will lose in the long run and quickly learn. I play alot of live 4-8 limit in Biloxi, MS and believe it or not a usually can make about 500+ a session. I don't necessarily play monsters but I play alot of suited connectors for cheap if I can and I play position. NEVER BLUFF! I bet my hands hard and dont be scared to reraise bc people will raise you with 2nd pr. DO not go on TILT and you will be fine. The peeps who are playing .25-.50 limit are probably beginners who dont know any better anyways.

Re: Playing Limit
 

So that's fine if we have opponents saying "hey look! I have 2 cards" but am I supposed to call down with second or even bottom pair like they do? It just doesn't seem right.

Re: Playing Limit
 

Limit is about winning/saving single bets. Like in any form of poker, all you can do is play a hand optimally and wait for the long run to get there.

Also remember that the odds are different in limit than no limit - if you have a fully live draw, there are many calldowns that you would not make in no limit - this is also true because you won't be facing a huge bet on the river like you might in NL/PL.

And hands like this are why there can be sick swings in limit poker.

Re: Playing Limit
 

OK that makes some sense to me. So is this correct:

You make money in limit when you realize that your made hand or draw is not the best and fold, saving bets.

It just didn't make sense to me before how you could have winning players because if there multiple players in pots all getting 5:1 a lot of the time or better, they are almost always all correct to call, therefore no one is making mistakes and therefore everyone should be a winner which does not compute.

This is why I thought a winner would be whoever's side variance was on for the day and I may as well be flipping on NL tables if we're all going to show our hand down anyways.

One more question, I read a post, I think by Ed Miller, that you should not be folding a reasonably big hand in a large pot for one bet. Is this true? ie. don't fold a set or a straight on a 3 flush board, etc.

Re: Playing Limit
 

OK, I think I sort of got the hang of this today, after 300 hands so far on 2 tables, I'm at 12.5BB/100. This is the biggest pot I won, I am probably limping into pots that I should be raising, but I'm still a little unsure what to do on the flop if I miss and OOP. That's why I limped in here:

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO posts
Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (6.4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="red">UTG+2 raises</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: (6.2 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="red">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="red">UTG 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="red">UTG+2 caps</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls

River: (18.2 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, <font color="red">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="red">Hero caps</font>, UTG+2 calls, UTG calls

Results: 30.2 BB Pot (1 BB Rake)

Is my play here correct considering implied odds for calling the cap on the turn? My thinking was that they were probably both quite a bit ahead of me, but if I caught I spade I could get at least 2 bets out of both of them.

Edit: accidentally posted results, I win obviously.

Re: Playing Limit
 

Your opponent in this hand is exactly the kind you want at a limit table. Look how many bets you make if he doesn't hit.

BTW - just call his river bet. He's bet into you on every street after you raised on the previous one. Your one pair is probably beat, but is good often enough to call for pot odds. In your position I would expect to see JT from him.

Re: Playing Limit
 

I like that line, its pretty standard - especially if you feel you can get substantial river action (which you did). The other factor is that you have better odds than a naked flush draw - gutshot straight draw helps.

When you see the turn, you are 23.8% against the hands of set deuces/AJ. The first call is automatic (vs a fold), and once it is 3 bets back to you, you know its a 3 way capped pot if you call - so its 3BB to win 15.2 in the pot. That's an acceptable price.

And when we're talking about limit play (this is also true in PLO often, but I digress), it's entirely common to have both players playing a hand correctly when it goes bet-call. Player A is ahead so he is right to bet. Player B is mathematically getting the proper immediate odds to call, so he does. Perfectly normal, happens almost every hand, especially if the pot gets bloated early.

Re: Playing Limit
 

Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

Selling, thanks for the advice. Your last paragraph is what I'm really struggling with in my head though. I just can't wrap my mind around both players playing correctly because it seems like the only thing that separates the winning players from the losing players then is variance which in the long term is supposed to even out, therefore that makes everyone who can count odds and outs a winner which is probably more than half the poker playing community, which makes this impossible. Sorry this is just weird poker theory stuff I'm making up.

Anyways, in the hand above UTG had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 2 pair and UTG+2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the turned straight. We all played this hand correctly except for UTG on the river I suppose. I'll have to think about this some more, weird.

Re: Playing Limit
 

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Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

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He's talking about the first hand, I think.

Re: Playing Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kurn, umm I don't have a pair on the river, I have the nuts.

Selling, thanks for the advice. Your last paragraph is what I'm really struggling with in my head though. I just can't wrap my mind around both players playing correctly because it seems like the only thing that separates the winning players from the losing players then is variance which in the long term is supposed to even out, therefore that makes everyone who can count odds and outs a winner which is probably more than half the poker playing community, which makes this impossible. Sorry this is just weird poker theory stuff I'm making up.

Anyways, in the hand above UTG had J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for 2 pair and UTG+2 had Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for the turned straight. We all played this hand correctly except for UTG on the river I suppose. I'll have to think about this some more, weird.

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Many poker players think they understand concepts but apply them horribly. And you are absolutely correct that variance can be a huge part of limit games, and you now know why. I don't frequent the limit forums, but this is the crux of why winrates are so thin relative to big bet games.

And yeah I've struggled with the same concepts too - I basically don't ever play LHE for a reason.

Re: Playing Limit
 

I think he means in a specific hand both players can play correctly. Over the course of thousands of hands it becomes clearer that one player plays better.

I would raise pre-flop with AQ suited but my experience with limit is small. Is this an alright play or should i just call with AQ type hands?

Re: Playing Limit
 

Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

Re: Playing Limit
 

Definitely raise preflop with AQs.

Re: Playing Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry thought you were talking about the second hand I posted where I rivered a flush.

Re: Playing Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, How is QQ the nuts on a JT542 board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry thought you were talking about the second hand I posted where I rivered a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I realized that after I posted this. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Playing Limit
 

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You make money in limit when you realize that your made hand or draw is not the best and fold, saving bets.

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There are many ways to save bets in limit, but they are not limited to folding.

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It just didn't make sense to me before how you could have winning players because if there multiple players in pots all getting 5:1 a lot of the time or better, they are almost always all correct to call, therefore no one is making mistakes and therefore everyone should be a winner which does not compute.

[/ QUOTE ]

A lot of times, people are not getting the correct odds to call and they call anyways, donating money to everybody else. Also, you have to think about making their odds worse by raising/ check-raising to make opponents get worse odds (in the appropriate situations).

If you haven't read ToP yet, I highly recommend it.

Re: Playing Limit
 

[ QUOTE ]
is this correct:

You make money in limit when you realize that your made hand or draw is not the best and fold, saving bets.

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That is just one of many ways to make money in limit.

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It just didn't make sense to me before how you could have winning players because if there multiple players in pots


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If there are routinely multiple players in pots, then they are playing bad hands. If the game is maniacal and they are correct to call postflop, then that means their preflop errors were much larger. It's quite common for a player to give up more than half of the size of the big blind in a multiway pot (in BB/100, that is losing 25 BB/100), and sometimes players even give up more than a big blind in a reraised pot. These calls make up 100% of the profit of many winning full ring limit players--the rest of their skill advantage may pay for the rake. It is hard to impossible to recover from poor preflop play in limit, since the postflop bets are not large in relation to the preflop bets.

[ QUOTE ]
all getting 5:1 a lot of the time or better, they are almost always all correct to call,


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Actually, no. There was a hand in the small stakes limit forum where someone mentioned playing 33 in a 5 or 6-way pot where the cap was 5 bets. 5 players put in 5 bets on an A93 rainbow flop. The set of 3s held up. No one else pointed it out at the time, but what could the other players have had? Think about it... they couldn't all have aces, and no one had 99. They were not getting the correct odds to draw, and they put in 5 bets, which was a huge mistake.

Even if the players have the odds to draw, they often call without what you would call a decent draw, and they pay off on the river while dead.

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therefore no one is making mistakes and therefore everyone should be a winner which does not compute.


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Even if no one is making a mistake by calling, that doesn't mean they aren't making mistakes by failing to bet or raise when they should. By the way, many players overemphasize trying to get their opponents to make mistakes. Don't forget that you have to avoid making your own mistakes, which means pumping up the pot when you have an equity advantage, and calling to longshot draws when you have the odds.

[ QUOTE ]

One more question, I read a post, I think by Ed Miller, that you should not be folding a reasonably big hand in a large pot for one bet. Is this true? ie. don't fold a set or a straight on a 3 flush board, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's common for people to try to figure out "where they are at" during a hand. However, your task is not to determine whether you are probably ahead or not (even when you are betting, you can't bet as a 80% favorite if you are only ahead of busted draws which can't call). Your task is to determine whether your call is a good investment. When the pot is huge, calling does not need to win often at all to be a good investment.

Let's suppose you have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on a board of A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and are first to act on the river. You could check and call, in fear of a heart, but after you check, just about any hand that beats you will be able to bet for value. If you bet, many weaker hands like AJ with no heart will make a crying call, and you can safely fold to a raise against most opponents, which means you do the same against stronger hands while getting more value from weaker hands. The same is true if you have many other hands of similar strength. So, when someone bets into you on a scary board, and you don't think that person is bluffing, consider that they may be making this type of bet. They figure that if you have them beat, they will call anyway, so why not bet? That possibility means you often have an easily profitable call when the pot is large and you have a set on a scary board.

The previous paragraph was not beginner-level thinking. Most of your opponents have not thought about that sort of situation. They just react to the current one. If you have thought about situations like the above, this should give you an advantage, since you can make correct plays your opponents think are surprising or wrong.

Re: Playing Limit
 

While you won a huge pot, you made two plays that I think were expensive mistakes, on average.

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CO posts
Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (6.4 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="red">UTG+2 raises</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls


[/ QUOTE ]
You should be raising, at least preflop and at the second opportunity on the flop. You have a big equity advantage on these streets, and you will be called.

Preflop, you have an excellent hand, AQs, that does particularly well when no one else has shown strength, and the pot is likely to be multiway. The CO posted. In that situation, I would raise KJs for value, and maybe QJs.

On the flop, you have a flush draw and two overcards. That is often a favorite over top pair, and it usually wins far more than par in a multiway pot. You may prefer to call the first time if you think raising will knock too many people out of this small pot, but you can raise for value the second time, when the pot is larger and people are tied to it.