When are games too good?
 

I read an essay Mr. Malmuth wrote a while back about games that are too LP. When almost everyone sees the flop and 3 or more on average showdown you end up playing against too many hands drawing against you. Even if you are good right now the 4 or 5 other who are going to call down have a good chance to beat you as a group.

I play at a table like this the other night. I would try to isolate or reduce the playing field, but would still get many callers. It was crazy. Big pairs didn't have much value. Sets would get beat by runner runner flushes or straights. I usually welcome this type of play, but it is like there are 6 people on one team and you are the only one on the other.

I find that my favorite table type is one that has 2 or 3 LP, 1 LAG, and the rest LP preflop/weak tight post flop.

Has anyone had this experience before?

I kept thinking to myself this table is great, it will great when I hit a good hand. Then when I did it would get get beat by the other team. It seemed like the only way I could win was to bluff the 2 relitively tight players at the table when scare cards came. I didn't dare bluff the rest of the table. I might have a different opinion if my big draws would have hit. I think I played well, but didn't have my fair share of luck that night. {shrug}

Re: When are games too good?
 

I think this effect is called schooling, and it means this: If there are 4 fish in the pot chasing you down, the magnitudes of their individual errors are reduced.

Think about the following situation: You're in the BB K9o and 3 people call. You check, there are 4 bets in the pot, and the flop is K52r. You bet out, and nobody has odds to call you because they are holding, respectively, A5, 2Qs, and 46s. However, the first guy does call with his 46s gutshot. Now there are 6 bets in the pot. The next guy calls with A5, and finally the Q2 comes along as well.

The second two callers mistakes were made smaller by the error made by the first player (calling with his gutter).

What's important to see here is that you will still make a lot of money from this table in the long run. However I think that typically once you get past 2 or 3 awful players at a table you'll see diminishing returns as other such fish sit down.

Re: When are games too good?
 

Short run it can hurt you but for me, yum yum. I'll take that table any day.

Re: When are games too good?
 

The variance is huge in this game and it either makes me very happy quickly or tilts me. I'm trying to take the line of getting up early and if I cant get up and play with OPM then its probably better to either go in an uber tight shell or bail.

There's generally a couple of linchpins that even the fish see as fish, as fish they'll widen to outplay the "bigger" fish post-flop (a common leak at these tables). The problem is that they either bust and leave or gasp rack up and leave and the game can die.

If they are known to sit there to they see felt, then giddyup, re-buy and settle in.

Re: When are games too good?
 

Dude, that game is the best! Variance is high but it's easily the most profitable kind of table unless there's some kind of weird table where people aren't too loose passive but are making a bunch of easily exploitable mistakes.

Re: When are games too good?
 

half weak/tight half loose passive is better imo.

Re: When are games too good?
 

*sigh*

Re: When are games too good?
 

Some of my biggest pots recently have been hands like QQ with like 5 people chasing me all the way down and them all whiffing.

OP-Don't know where you play but a majority of the tables I play live at are LP types. There might be one sort of laggy player but a majority of the tables are LP players that I want chasing down marginal hands. Also this is merely one session that you are speaking of here.

Embrace the LP

Re: When are games too good?
 

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I play at a table like this the other night. I would try to isolate or reduce the playing field, but would still get many callers.

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If making a raise for the purpose of isolating or thinning the field won't actually accomplish that purpose, then quit making raises for that purpose (although you'll probably want to be increasing your value raises at such a table).

Also, some players make mistakes at this sort of table by continuing on in large pots when they are obviously drawing dead on the turn or beat on the river because they feel tied to strong hands preflop or on the flop.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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I think I played well, but didn't have my fair share of luck that night. {shrug}

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This is the whole story. On this type of table, you have to make the hand that is going to win at showdown. But, when you do, you get to stack chips while the next three hands are played.

The day you sit on one of these tables, and run good, you will be wondering how the hell you are going to stack those 60 BBs of other peoples money. (I usually go with a pyramid, it is fairly stable, and it doesn't take that much space. Well, sometimes it does, but that isn't your problem [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).)

Re: When are games too good?
 

Towers of 50 chips on a single layer chip base until I have more than four racks, ftw. Then I go with the pyramid stacked on top of the larger pyramid and build vertically. God, I wish I had a pic.

These are really the kind of theoretical questions we should be discussing in the forums.

Re: When are games too good?
 

I agree with what other people have said here. These kinds of tables are good, but the variance is high.

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I would try to isolate or reduce the playing field, but would still get many callers.


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You cannot raise to isolate weak players in this kind of a game. Raise for value, not to isolate. Since the pots are big, you can limp with drawing hands you could not play in a tighter game. Keep track of pot odds. Don’t fold things like gut shot straight draws for one bet when you have the odds to call and the board and action do not look bad.

Remember that the schooling effect does help protect the fish. They are making the pots large, which means some of the ‘mistakes’ they are making are actually correct. In some cases they do have the pot odds post flop to call with their long shot draws, and their pre-flop mistakes are small too because of the large pots, but they are still making mistakes. You just need to adjust your game to exploit the mistakes they are making.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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Remember that the schooling effect does help protect the fish. They are making the pots large, which means some of the ‘mistakes’ they are making are actually correct. In some cases they do have the pot odds post flop to call with their long shot draws, and their pre-flop mistakes are small too because of the large pots, but they are still making mistakes. You just need to adjust your game to exploit the mistakes they are making.

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Actually, this touches on one of the mistakes that 'good' players make in these goofy games. They fold to often, because they aren't adjusting their play for the size of the pot. I can't even list all of the situations, but you see people folding for one bet with gutshots, not peeling with their pocket pairs, not peeling with bottom/midpair and some backdoor draws, etc. You need to think about ALL your outs, and also keep track of what kind of price you are getting.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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Towers of 50 chips on a single layer chip base until I have more than four racks, ftw. Then I go with the pyramid stacked on top of the larger pyramid and build vertically. God, I wish I had a pic.

These are really the kind of theoretical questions we should be discussing in the forums.

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Dude draw this pyramid thing. I'm gonna be gone for a few days so PM/IM me or something.

Re: When are games too good?
 

I can't quite visualize one outer's pyramid either.

Mine is just the basic pyramid of stacks of 20.

Top level one stack. Next level down, 3 stacks. Third level down, 6 stacks. Fourth level down 10 stacks. Fifth level down, 15 stacks, and so on. Actually never built one bigger than five levels.

Re: When are games too good?
 

Yours is exactly what I'm talking about. Perhaps I did a bad job of originally explaining it. I'm tired. I"m going to sleep now.

Re: When are games too good?
 

you probably haven't played enough poker or don't know how to play very well. Those 5 way capped pots where you win UI with QQ can really do wonders for your bankroll man.

Re: When are games too good?
 

games can never be too good

Re: When are games too good?
 

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games can never be too good

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if you hold a certain disdain for profit or making money, i would disagree.

Re: When are games too good?
 

The OP's description describes the 8/16 games at Canterbury Park in MN perfectly. When I first started playing these games I thought they were just a crapshoot and the best starting hand never won because you always got chased down.
Now I know they are a goldmine if you can make the proper adjustments. You can't raise to issolate or bluff because they will call and coldcall 2 or sometimes even 3 bets. You are often right to draw to gutshots, two pair and even 2 outer pocket pairs after the flop in huge pots. Just play ABC poker and play your big hands and draws strongly and you will rake in huge pots. It can be frustrating on nights when you get sucked out on or can't hit your big draws but the times you do you will win racks of chips off the chasers and the super LAG's.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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The OP's description describes the 8/16 games at Canterbury Park in MN perfectly. When I first started playing these games I thought they were just a crapshoot and the best starting hand never won because you always got chased down.


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Exactly, when things don't go badly, you get a lot of sessions, where you do what I did yesterday. $600+ in a little over three hours. Most of what I did, was not get sucked out on, when I was ahead. Did I mention that I love Tuesday Mornings.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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games can never be too good

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if you hold a certain disdain for profit or making money, i would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]My perfect game is everybody else limping all the time or calling just 1 raise.
There is gold in them thar hills

Re: When are games too good?
 

Most of my raises were on big draws from late position on the flop. I was trying to accomplish 3 things.
1) Get the button to fold, which I could often do.
2) Get others to fold so if I spiked a pair they couldn't draw out on me, which only marginally worked.
3) Get more money in the pot so when my nut flush or straight hits I get that 3 hand chip stacking thing Mr T is talking about, which almost always worked.

I've definitely run well in these types of games and would double or triple up in 2 hours or so. I guess the nice thing was that when I wasn't running well I didn't dump the same amount. It seems like the win potential vs. the lose potential is pretty good. Something like 2.5:1.

I definitely don't hate games like this, but because of the "schooling" effect they aren't the easiest to play. The variance almost makes it a crap shoot. The only edge seems to be preflop hand selection and knowing when you obv drawing dead (although knowing if you are drawing dead in these games is tough too).

Side note: The table was funny in a different way. If I raised from early position most players would fold. I discovered that I could run a very weird bluff (high risk) by raising pf UTG and firing the flop and turn. I did this 4 times and only got caught once.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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However I think that typically once you get past 2 or 3 awful players at a table you'll see diminishing returns as other such fish sit down.

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Ridiculous. Common misconception. Play money poker is by far the most profitable form of poker in the known universe, and anyone who doesn't win a virtual ton of play money playing it doesn't really understand poker theory.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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half weak/tight half loose passive is better imo.

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Better for what? Not EV.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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Remember that the schooling effect does help protect the fish. They are making the pots large, which means some of the ‘mistakes’ they are making are actually correct.

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Partially true, but that is overstated too. The reason is that they have the pot odds to draw to their outs, ASSUMING all their outs are good, which they are often not. This is where a skilled player has another huge advantage.

If they are drawing to flushes or straights on non-paired boards, then yes. If they are drawing to their trips or 2 pair on very dry boards, then yes. But it's when they won't give up their bottom pair no matter what the board texture is that you murder them. Sure, they have 5 outs, and sure, they are getting 8:1, but is that good enough? No, often it's not, because they haven't discounted their outs correctly (in fact sometimes they're drawing dead.) Then they have reverse implied odds to worry about (well, ignorance is bliss, actually, so there's no worrying really going on.)

Re: When are games too good?
 

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I definitely don't hate games like this, but because of the "schooling" effect they aren't the easiest to play. The variance almost makes it a crap shoot. The only edge seems to be preflop hand selection and knowing when you obv drawing dead (although knowing if you are drawing dead in these games is tough too).

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I kind of envy you. Guys like me, we have to wait months for a good new poker book to come out. You, on the other hand, have about 20 in the book store waiting for you right now that will be great reading :-)

Re: When are games too good?
 

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I definitely don't hate games like this, but because of the "schooling" effect they aren't the easiest to play. The variance almost makes it a crap shoot. The only edge seems to be preflop hand selection and knowing when you obv drawing dead (although knowing if you are drawing dead in these games is tough too).

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I kind of envy you. Guys like me, we have to wait months for a good new poker book to come out. You, on the other hand, have about 20 in the book store waiting for you right now that will be great reading :-)

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This is the greatest single post in SSLH history

Re: When are games too good?
 

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games can never be too good

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if you hold a certain disdain for profit or making money, i would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]My perfect game is everybody else limping all the time or calling just 1 raise.
There is gold in them thar hills

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This sounds like Canterbury 6/12 which I like as well.
These loose/passive games are great because you can limp with all kinds of speculative hands and be sure the hand will be played multiway and mostly for only 1 or at the most 2 bets preflop. You can win big pots when you hit big hands/draws. This game is not as profitable overall as loose/aggressive but there will also be much less variance.

Re: When are games too good?
 

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games can never be too good

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if you hold a certain disdain for profit or making money, i would disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]My perfect game is everybody else limping all the time or calling just 1 raise.
There is gold in them thar hills

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This sounds like Canterbury 6/12 which I like as well.
These loose/passive games are great because you can limp with all kinds of speculative hands and be sure the hand will be played multiway and mostly for only 1 or at the most 2 bets preflop. You can win big pots when you hit big hands/draws. This game is not as profitable overall as loose/aggressive but there will also be much less variance.

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Canterbury represent! That 6/12 game is a gold mine. Just for reference, I have had 2 $1000+ days at CP 6/12 in the past year. That's how good that game is sometimes. And regular posters know how much I suck...

Re: When are games too good?
 

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I definitely don't hate games like this, but because of the "schooling" effect they aren't the easiest to play. The variance almost makes it a crap shoot. The only edge seems to be preflop hand selection and knowing when you obv drawing dead (although knowing if you are drawing dead in these games is tough too).

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I kind of envy you. Guys like me, we have to wait months for a good new poker book to come out. You, on the other hand, have about 20 in the book store waiting for you right now that will be great reading :-)

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I'm reading one right now that talks about this very thing. Check out page 80 of Poker Essays by Mason Malmuth.

I'm not saying that I don't know what the right play is most of the time in games like this. It is usually obv. My biggest problem is that I usually have no idea how strong my hand is when most of the players check and call, check and call. They seem to slow play everything. {shrug}

I definitely have a lot to learn about playing holdem, but I'm not that new. I've read 15 of those books already, some of them twice or three times.

I definitely think the law of diminishing returns applies here. It doesn't mean you should avoid tables like this. It just means that every bad player that joins doesn't contribute another equal amount of dead money to the good players.

I just brought this up because it is something that I have read about but never experienced until now. It's not a rant about running bad or suck outs. I don't care about that. It was an interesting experience, that's all.

Re: When are games too good?
 

*grunch* (then I'll go back & see how much of this I'm just repeating)

In a game like this, one pair hands have little value. Two pair hands which don't include the top card also have little value. Raise with an equity edge, fold without one, take free cards, limp speculative hands, rinse, repeat, profit.

Re: When are games too good?
 

** Grunching here, so would be surprised if some of these arguments haven't already been made. **

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I read an essay Mr. Malmuth wrote a while back about games that are too LP. When almost everyone sees the flop and 3 or more on average showdown you end up playing against too many hands drawing against you. Even if you are good right now the 4 or 5 other who are going to call down have a good chance to beat you as a group.

I play at a table like this the other night. I would try to isolate or reduce the playing field, but would still get many callers. It was crazy. Big pairs didn't have much value. Sets would get beat by runner runner flushes or straights. I usually welcome this type of play, but it is like there are 6 people on one team and you are the only one on the other.

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This is almost exactly true. However ... and this is a critical concept ... it also means you're getting 6:1 on your money when you win.

Therefore, against 6 people who will play no-fold-'em after the flop, you need to play starters that will win ~16-17% or more of the time, and you need to raise with most of them to push your equity edge. The single biggest leak I see in games of this nature is from people who get gun-shy after the third or fourth time their overpair or top set gets run down by 96o, and as a result stop pushing the enormous preflop equity edge they often have coming in against a bunch of people holding what are essentially two random cards.

Playing passive in a game like this is like playing the prevent defense in football ... you're so concerned with not giving up the "big play" that you'll get nickel-and-dimed to death and often wind up losing anyway! Stay aggressive! When you're in a pot, you'll have a much better chance of winning than your average opponent will, so better to take your (theoretical) share of as much money as he or she is willing to give you.

By the same token, you need to push your equity after the flop on hands that have a greater-than-average chance to be best at the end, regardless of whether they're best now! Yes, you should play A2s from UTG in this type of game, and yes, when you flop a flush draw with it, if you know that 4-5 other people are coming along for the ride you need to cap your ace-high on the flop if given the opportunity ... even if the person in there raising with you turns over pocket aces! In games like this, it doesn't matter what hand is best before the flop or on the flop ... it only matters what hand is most likely to be best when all five cards have been dealt.

There is no such thing as a game that's "too" loose-passive, and you can take that to the bank.

Mook