5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I really enjoy this game, but I'm clearly a supplier. I wait for premium (scoop) pots, then either get bad or partially bad flops and have to fold to big bets. I know I'm being pushed around, but in PL it's hard to invest a lot on draws, isn't it? Or should I go with the draws and keep my fingers crossed. Seems when I do I lose, but when I go with "made" hands (sets, str8s, etc.) I get sucked out on. The one thing I've noticed is the same few players seem to win every time and the chumps like me keep feeding them. What are they doing that I'm not? Please help.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Hard to say without seeing any specific hands. Perhaps go play a few sessions and save the hand histories of anything you find interesting and post them all here.

89,870 and counting

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

the rake in that game makes it not worth playing. step up to $25 or switch to stars.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I get 27 percent rakeback, which allows me to get most of my money back and keep playing. I win the rest back playing SNGs, but would really like to learn this game.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

step up and learn at the $25 level. the play isnt really much better. rake destroys split pot games in ways that non split games can only begin to dream of. its so bad that you have to take it into account when you think of how large an edge you have because if you get all $10 in and you split you lose like $1.50 or something (i think, 10% up to $3 right?). suddenly your 55/45 doesn't look so pretty does it?

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
in PL it's hard to invest a lot on draws, isn't it? Or should I go with the draws and keep my fingers crossed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is what you need to look at. If you find it hard to invest a lot on draws, you are playing the wrong game. You just need to know what kind of draws to put it all in with. If you have nut low and nut flush draw three ways on the flop, it should be pretty easy to push and pray. Made str8s are not very powerful if made on the flop - some examples are broadway which is susceptible to a set filling up or a 2-flushed broadway flop where someone else flopped broadway freerolling you for the flush, or a made 8 high straight where someone else can have a higher str8 or same str8 freerolling you with a low draw for 3/4s. If you are predictable with folding strong starting hands to whiffed flops, you may well be bluffed off these hands by the same observant players time and time again. Make a few adjustments and you should be okay... number one is don't be too predictable, number two don't be afraid to stack off when you flop sick draws (not str8 draws!).

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

i think you need a new nickname or you'll never be able to win.


Stuart "The Donator" Paterson plays online at Full Tilt Poker.
* Nicknamed "The Donator"
* 1 WPT final table
* Prolific online poker player
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/stuartPaterson.php






ok, but seriously though i think you need COMPLETELY familiarize yourself with the math of the game. this is how i learned to play, and probably most others either.

when you lose a hand, run an odds simulator and check to see if it was: a) a crazy bad beat b) coinflip c) freeroll

chances are, if you see the same people winning time and again... they themselves are pretty experienced and familiar with the math of the game. it's possible to run bad and find marginal spots for very long periods, but getting it in with the best of it will never fail in the long run.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Thanks for the advice, guys. Seems whenever I play A23x the flop is three highs, then when I play four Broadways, flop almost always is low. Even when I flop a high set there are two low cards out and I'm heads-up and don't want to draw for half the pot. Are 9-10-J-Q or 4-6-7-8 kind of hands good in this game or should they be avoided? See people winning with them.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I also always assume when I'm against 3 or more opponents that somebody has A-2. What about hands like KK36. Fold them or see a flop?

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Here's a typical hand for me. I get solid wheel cards and a medium pair, then the fop hits by wheel cards, not the pair, and I have no idea where I am in the hand and have to fold. Or should I be aggressive here?


Full Tilt Poker Game - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L -
Seat 1: z_l4 ($6.45)
Seat 2: Player1($11.55)
Seat 3: Player2 ($3.85)
Seat 4: Player3 ($4)
Seat 5: Player4 ($6.25)
Seat 6: Player5 ($4.40)
Seat 7: Player6 ($10.80)
Seat 8: HERO ($9.65)
Player6 posts the small blind of $0.05
HERO has 5 seconds left to act
HERO posts the big blind of $0.10
5 seconds left to act
Player1posts a dead small blind of $0.05
Player1posts $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [4c 8s 8h 2d]
z_l4 calls $0.10
Player1checks
Player2 calls $0.10
Player3 calls $0.10
Player4 folds
Player5 calls $0.10
Player6 has 15 seconds left to act
Player6 calls $0.05
HERO checks
*** FLOP *** [4d Ac 2s]
Player6 has 15 seconds left to act
Player6 checks
HERO checks
z_l4 checks
Player1has 15 seconds left to act
Player1checks
Player2 checks
Player3 checks
Player5 checks
*** TURN *** [4d Ac 2s] [Ts]
penalty sevens sits down
Player6 has 15 seconds left to act
penalty sevens adds $10
Player6 has timed out
Player6 checks
HERO checks
Player6 has been disconnected
z_l4 checks
Player1checks
Player2 checks
Player3 checks
Player5 checks
*** RIVER *** [4d Ac 2s Ts] [3h]
Player6 checks
HERO checks
z_l4 checks
Player6 has reconnected
Player1checks
Player2 checks
Player3 bets $0.10
Player5 has 15 seconds left to act
Player6 is sitting out
Player5 calls $0.10
Player6 folds
HERO folds
z_l4 folds
Player1calls $0.10
Player2 has 15 seconds left to act
Player2 folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player3 shows [6s 2h 5d 6d] a straight, Six high, for high and 5,4,3,2,A, for low
Player5 mucks
Player1mucks
Player3 wins the high pot ($0.50) with a straight, Six high
Player3 wins the low pot ($0.45) with 5,4,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.05 | Rake $0.10
Board: [4d Ac 2s Ts 3h]
Seat 1: z_l4 folded on the River
Seat 2: Player1mucked [3c 3s Qc 4s] - HI: three of a kind, Threes
Seat 3: Player2 folded on the River
Seat 4: Player3 showed [6s 2h 5d 6d] and won ($0.95) with HI: a straight, Six high; LO: 5,4,3,2,A
Seat 5: Player4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Player5 (button) mucked [Ah 3d Ks Jd] - HI: two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 7: Player6 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 8: HERO (big blind) folded on the River

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Here's another. I consider this a total whiff and move on. But I'm folding A LOT of hands postflop and the blinds are eating me alive.

Full Tilt Poker Game #4292990571: Table Washburn - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 13:22:42 ET - 2007/11/25
Seat 1: Player1 ($10.40)
Seat 2: Player2 ($11.45), is sitting out
Seat 3: Player3 ($3.85)
Seat 4: Player4 ($4.55)
Seat 5: Player5 ($5.15)
Seat 6: Player6 ($6)
Seat 7: Player7 ($10.70), is sitting out
Seat 8: HERO ($9.40)
Seat 9: Player8 ($10.35)
HERO posts the small blind of $0.05
Player8 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [5s 5h As 2s]
Player1 calls $0.10
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
HERO calls $0.05
Player8 checks
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kd 2c]
HERO checks
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
*** TURN *** [Ac Kd 2c] [Kc]
HERO checks
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
*** RIVER *** [Ac Kd 2c Kc] [6c]
HERO checks
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO shows [5s 5h As 2s] two pair, Aces and Kings, for high
Player8 shows [3c Td 7d Qh] a pair of Kings, for high and 7,6,3,2,A, for low
Player1 shows [3d Qs Qd 7c] two pair, Kings and Queens, for high and 7,6,3,2,A, for low
HERO wins the high pot ($0.15) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Player8 ties for the low pot ($0.10) with 7,6,3,2,A
Player1 ties for the low pot ($0.05) with 7,6,3,2,A

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Again, I have no idea where I stand after not really hitting this flop.


Full Tilt Poker Game - $0.05/$0.10 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L -

Seat 1: Player1 ($9.10)
Seat 2: Player2 ($11.30)
Seat 3: Player3 ($4.75)
Seat 4: Player4 ($4.70)
Seat 5: Player5 ($3.95)
Seat 6: Player6 ($5.80)
Seat 7: Player7 ($10)
Seat 8: HERO ($10)
Seat 9: Player8 ($11.50)
Player6 has 5 seconds left to act
Player6 posts the small blind of $0.05
Player7 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Ah Th 4h As]
HERO calls $0.10
Player8 calls $0.10
Player1 raises to $0.20
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player7 calls $0.10
HERO calls $0.10
Player8 calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [7h 2d 5s]
Player7 checks
HERO checks
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 checks
Player1 bets $0.10
Player7 folds
HERO calls $0.10
Player8 calls $0.10
*** TURN *** [7h 2d 5s] [9s]
HERO checks
Player8 checks
Player1 bets $1.15
HERO folds
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 folds
Uncalled bet of $1.15 returned to Player1
Player1 mucks
Player1 wins the pot ($1.05)

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I'll add this: My basic strategy is to play A-2-5-6 or A-3-4-6 hands and try to flop monsters. Or A-2-7-8, like the books (Zee, etc.) and flop 4-5-6 or hit nut low and a flush draw, but I either never hit those or flop part of it and get quartered when my high doesn't come on the turn or river. I used to play 1-2 cents at Stars to learn, and beat those games up pretty good, running $12 into $315 over a year or so, but I get shot down in the 5-10 cent games.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a typical hand for me. I get solid wheel cards and a medium pair, then the fop hits by wheel cards, not the pair, and I have no idea where I am in the hand and have to fold. Or should I be aggressive here?

[/ QUOTE ]

2488 are not solid wheel cards. statistics have shown that AA A2 and A3 are the most profitable O8 hands (in this precise order)... 23xx is usually unprofitable. 24xx is certainly not profitable in general at full-ring.

bottom 2 pair on or any 2 pair on a 3-low flop is playing to get your money back at best. this is a clear fold.

unfortunately, the "recent" O8 archives seem to be unaccessible, lots of good reads there on stuff like starting hands and profitability.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's another. I consider this a total whiff and move on. But I'm folding A LOT of hands postflop and the blinds are eating me alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to be be selectively aggressive with premium/good hands... otherwise you will always get blinded out.

if necessary, drop back down to minimum stakes and starting building pots and semibluffing until you get comfortable with it.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
but I either never hit those or flop part of it and get quartered when my high doesn't come on the turn or river

[/ QUOTE ]

PLO8 is not entirely a waiting game, it's also a game of making things happen and creating opportunities for yourself. Limit O8 is more of a waiting game... hell you might even want to try that for a while.

in one of the hands you posted, you limped in early position with AA4 suited, and flat-called a raise. that is a MAJOR leak.

try observing winning players, and do what they do. it's that easy.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

>in one of the hands you posted, you limped in early position with AA4 suited, and flat-called a raise. that is a MAJOR leak.

i should reraise there? how much? pots get big awfull fast in this game. what if the flop comes garbage for me like 8-9-10, which happens most of the time? do i shut it down after putting more money into the pot?

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

You've got a huuuge paranoia complex in PLO8, and nobody aside from you can do anything about it. If you always flop bad cards, then maybe this isn't the game for you. More likely you are simply discouraged and frustrated because you know you can crack the code but haven't. If you limp reraise with AA4x suited, you're putting a lot of pressure on the A2xx and A3xx hands that are the most likely hands raising you there. A2xx will feel the heat post flop (in this particular spot), and A3xx before the flop (in general). I get the sense you don't know where you are because you are so afraid of bad flops and results that you are not often enough the one who is dictating the action. As dave implied you've got to 'create your own luck' ... like Amir Vahidi said "to live, you must be willing to die" or something along those lines. What is your preflop raise % and VPIP % in full ring games?

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

You're right, Rando, I truly believe I can "crack the code" but it's like I'm feeling around in the dark. When I first started playing I was more aggressive and kept getting sucked out on so I think that's why I mostly limp to see flops. I only raise with hands like AA2K suited, then when the 8-9-10 suited flops come I back off and get mugged. So what's a good flop? Is A-3 really any good vs. 2 or 3 opponents with a 5-7-8 board? Somebody's got the A-2, right? Or am I finding monsters under my bed? Is KKJ10 any good with a K-3-4 flop? I figure somebody will at least hit the low for half the pot or even the wheel to scoop me if I don't fill up.
I played scared when I first learned hold 'em, but learned to get out there and mix it up because I'm confident about where I stand postflop. But with so many cards dealt out in OHL I'm always assuming somebody's got something better than I do when I don't have the nuts either way.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

A good starting point for improvement is to concentrate more on position in this game than in other games you have played.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I'm going to list four hands from last night. Any help would be appreciated. (I'll let you know my thinking, but don't laugh to much at me if I'm just a fish."

Here I thought I made a good play. I had nut low, but no high, but when third diamond hit on the river I went all-in since I had the A of diamonds and thought I could then bluff that I hit the flush as well and players would fold thinking they'd be quartered. And, yes, the folded.

Full Tilt Poker Game - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 2007/11/26
Seat 1: Player1 ($4.45)
Seat 2: Player2 ($10.15)
Seat 3: Player3 ($6.90)
Seat 4: Player4 ($4)
Seat 5: Player5 ($1.50)
Seat 6: HERO ($8.80)
Seat 7: Player7 ($3.30)
Seat 8: Player8 ($10.25)
Seat 9: Player9 ($22.65)
HERO posts the small blind of $0.05
Player7 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [3c Tc 2s Ad]
Player8 calls $0.10
Player9 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 has 15 seconds left to act
Player3 calls $0.10
Player4 folds
Player5 calls $0.10
HERO calls $0.05
Player7 checks
*** FLOP *** [Qd 5c 8d]
HERO checks
Player7 checks
Player8 checks
Player3 checks
Player5 checks
*** TURN *** [Qd 5c 8d] [6s]
HERO checks
Player7 checks
Player8 checks
Player3 has 15 seconds left to act
Player3 bets $0.40
Player5 calls $0.40
HERO calls $0.40
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
*** RIVER *** [Qd 5c 8d 6s] [3d]
HERO bets $8.30, and is all in
Player3 has 15 seconds left to act
Player3 folds
Player5 folds
Uncalled bet of $8.30 returned to HERO
HERO mucks
HERO wins the pot ($1.55)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.70 | Rake $0.15
Board: [Qd 5c 8d 6s 3d]
Seat 1: Player1 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Player2 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Player3 folded on the River
Seat 4: Player4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Player5 (button) folded on the River
Seat 6: HERO (small blind) collected ($1.55), mucked
Seat 7: Player7 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 8: Player8 folded on the Turn
Seat 9: Player9 didn't bet (folded)

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Here's a common occurrance. I get dealt A-2-x-x then flop the A-2. I consider this a worthless hand and fold. Is that correct?



Full Tilt Poker Game #4308192000: Table Stony Ridge - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 21:03:33 ET - 2007/11/26
Seat 1: Player1 ($5)
Seat 2: Player2 ($10)
Seat 3: Player3 ($8.55)
Seat 4: Player4 ($13.60)
Seat 5: Player5 ($1.20)
Seat 6: HERO ($9.50)
Seat 7: Player7 ($63.90)
Seat 8: Player8 ($10.10)
Seat 9: Player9 ($21.60)
Player4 posts the small blind of $0.05
Player5 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [5h 7s 2h Ac]
HERO calls $0.10
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player9 calls $0.10
Player4 calls $0.05
Player5 checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad 2c Qh]
Player4 checks
Player5 checks
HERO checks
Player9 bets $0.10
Player4 calls $0.10
Player5 folds
HERO folds
*** TURN *** [Ad 2c Qh] [6d]
Player4 has 15 seconds left to act
Player4 checks
Player9 has 15 seconds left to act
Player9 bets $1.90
Player4 folds
Uncalled bet of $1.90 returned to Player7
Player9 mucks
Player9 wins the pot ($0.55)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.60 | Rake $0.05
Board: [Ad 2c Qh 6d]
Seat 1: Player1 is sitting out
Seat 2: Player2 is sitting out
Seat 3: Player3 is sitting out
Seat 4: Player4 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Player5 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: HERO folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Player7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Player8 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Player9 (button) collected ($0.55), mucked

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

I'm sure I totally misplayed this hand, but who knows. This was a very aggressive table. I get dealt a fantastic hand in early position, so I called with the intention of going all-in after a raise, which was happening pretty much every hand. Of course, nobody raises and I get stuck in the mud.

Full Tilt Poker Game $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - ET - 2007/11/26
Seat 1: Player1 ($4.10)
Seat 2: HERO ($9.30)
Seat 3: Player3 ($4.30)
Seat 4: Player4 ($9.20)
Seat 5: Player5 ($10)
Seat 6: Player6 ($4.85)
Seat 7: Player7 ($12.25)
Seat 8: Player8 ($16.55)
Seat 9: Player9 ($10)
Player3 posts the small blind of $0.05
Player7 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [As Ac Kh 2d]
Player8 folds
Player1 calls $0.10
HERO calls $0.10
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
Player7 folds
Player8 checks
*** FLOP *** [6d 6s 8d]
Player3 stands up
bAAdbEEtU adds $10
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 checks
Player1 has 15 seconds left to act
Player1 checks
HERO checks
*** TURN *** [6d 6s 8d] [Ts]
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
HERO checks
*** RIVER *** [6d 6s 8d Ts] [8s]
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
HERO checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player8 shows [9d Qc 3h Qs] two pair, Queens and Eights, for high
Player1 mucks
HERO shows [As Ac Kh 2d] two pair, Aces and Eights, for high
HERO wins the pot ($0.35) with two pair, Aces and Eights
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.35 | Rake $0
Board: [6d 6s 8d Ts 8s]
Seat 1: Player1 mucked [Ks 5h 7c Ad] - HI: a pair of Eights
Seat 2: HERO showed [As Ac Kh 2d] and won ($0.35) with HI: two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 3: Player3 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Player4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Player5 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Player6 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Player7 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Player8 (big blind) showed [9d Qc 3h Qs] and lost with HI: two pair, Queens and Eights
Seat 9: Player9 didn't bet (folded)

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Final hand:

Here I thought I was a genius until the cards were turned over. I keep reading about "freerolls" -- which I never flop -- and thought I had one on the turn with the straight and nut flush draw, but it turns out I would've been crying in my cereal if the board paired. I just got lucky, right?


Full Tilt Poker Game - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - - 2007/11/26
Seat 1: Player1 ($4.45)
Seat 2: HERO ($9.35)
Seat 3: Player3 ($4.20)
Seat 4: Player4 ($9.20)
Seat 5: Player5 ($10)
Seat 6: Player6 ($4.85)
Seat 7: Player7 ($9.80)
Seat 8: Player8 ($16.30)
Seat 9: Player9 ($10), is sitting out
HERO posts the small blind of $0.05
Player3 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [8d Ah Td Qh]
Player4 calls $0.10
Player5 folds
Player6 calls $0.10
Player7 folds
Player8 folds
Player1 folds
HERO calls $0.05
Player3 checks
*** FLOP *** [Ad Th Kc]
HERO checks
Player3 checks
Player4 checks
Player6 checks
*** TURN *** [Ad Th Kc] [Jh]
HERO bets $9.25, and is all in
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player6 calls $4.75, and is all in
HERO shows [8d Ah Td Qh]
Player6 shows [Ac Ks Qd Kd]
Uncalled bet of $4.50 returned to HERO
*** RIVER *** [Ad Th Kc Jh] [7h]
HERO shows a flush, Ace high, for high
Player6 shows a straight, Ace high, for high
HERO wins the pot ($8.95) with a flush, Ace high
Player6 is sitting out
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $9.90 | Rake $0.95
Board: [Ad Th Kc Jh 7h]
Seat 1: Player1 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: HERO (small blind) showed [8d Ah Td Qh] and won ($8.95) with HI: a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: Player3 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: Player4 folded on the Turn
Seat 5: Player5 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Player6 showed [Ac Ks Qd Kd] and lost with HI: a straight, Ace high
Seat 7: Player7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Player8 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Player9 is sitting out

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
I only raise with hands like AA2K suited, then when the 8-9-10 suited flops come I back off and get mugged. ... Is KKJ10 any good with a K-3-4 flop? ... I'm confident about where I stand postflop. But with so many cards dealt out in OHL I'm always assuming somebody's got something better than I do when I don't have the nuts either way.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a lot to digest there. Do not only raise with hands like AA2x, because good players will know your pattern and refuse to give you action, and when they do they will have an easy time determining when they've got you over the barrel post-flop. What if you only raised with AA and KK in NLHE and nothing else?

Set of Ks is nice there, but vulnerable. Build the pot on the flop in a multiway hand, or pot it to pressure opponent heads up. Reevaluate if a straight card (also by definition here a low card) and/or flush turns, if a blank apply lots of pressure to either push them out or play their draw -EV. You're looking to trap sets and busted draws (str8, low, and flush) but that's a lot to fend off which is why top set on even a mildly coordinated 2-low flop is very vulnerable. Still, you can't let people make hands for free. That's the essence of this being a 'drawing game.' You need to hold on to the bull's horns in that spot. Build the pot, apply pressure at the right time, and the winnings from dead chasers and trapped hands will more than offset the losses when you have to hit eject on scary turns and even rivers - if someone is going to call a huge bet on the turn (All in in this spot on a turn brick) then play against them all the time because they are eventually felting themselves. The tough spots here are when you are raised on the flop by a wheel/other wrap and you don't know if a flush draw is also there, which is why you can consider just building the pot on this street so folding to action is cheaper for you.

You may not be as confident as you think post-flop. With so many cards dealt the paranoia complex is justifiable in multiway hands, but heads up you need to know how to see through the fog. Raise a few lesser hands preflop here and there. A24K ss is worth a raise, and if you brick the flop it's still cheap to dump it. Mix up your play and raises. You are very smart to focus on nuts, high and low, just remember that if you're heads up your requirements should be a little less provided you either have decent hands both ways or a very good hand one way (especially high if a made low isn't possible). Since we're talking NLO8, you're bound to get stuck either stacking off on questionable calls, or dumping very good hands against bluffing donkeys... now and then, especially while you're learning the ropes. This is NLO8 we're talking about.

Hands:

1 - I like it, made nut low can definitely bluff the naked ace, great way to steal money from the lesser flushes and any high hand.

2 - Agreed, especially dumpable when bet and called in front of you.

3 - feel free to pot flop

4 - no, it's not that you got lucky, it's that you "didn't get unlucky" ... you had 8 hearts (9 if you are counting the J but you might undercount to allow for broadway drawing to fill up) and he had 3 Js and a K... your odds of improving are twice his. Not that you could know this, but broadway with a flush draw is pretty darn good here, so don't question your approach too much.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Thank you much for taking the time to break it down and help me out. I'm going to have to reread your reply a few times before it sinks in, I'm sure, but I'm already starting to feel like I'm at least facing in the right direction, if not heading that way. Seems like my best hands are when I'm the aggressor, which should be a "duh", I guess, but it's tough to evolve from a caller and checker into a bettor and raiser.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

So I decide tonight not to play like such a nit, loosen up a little with good hands, then I (think) I couldn't have played this hand any worse.

Full Tilt Poker Game: - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - - 2007/11/27
Seat 1: Player1 ($2.10)
Seat 2: Player2 ($9.55)
Seat 3: Player3 ($4.50)
Seat 4: Player4 ($10.90)
Seat 5: Player5 ($4.10)
Seat 6: Player6 ($7.60)
Seat 7: HERO ($9.45)
Seat 8: Player7 ($3.30)
Seat 9: Player8 ($3.30)
HERO posts the small blind of $0.05
Player7 posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [4h 3s 6d 5d]
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 calls $0.10
Player1 calls $0.10
Player2 folds
Player3 calls $0.10
Player4 calls $0.10
Player5 folds
Player6 folds
HERO calls $0.05
Player7 checks
*** FLOP *** [As 2h Qh]
HERO checks
Player7 checks
Player8 checks
Player1 checks
Player3 bets $0.60
Player4 calls $0.60
HERO calls $0.60
Player7 folds
Player8 calls $0.60
Player1 folds
*** TURN *** [As 2h Qh] [Tc]
HERO checks
Player8 checks
Player3 bets $3
Player4 calls $3
HERO calls $3
Player8 has 15 seconds left to act
Player8 calls $2.60, and is all in
*** RIVER *** [As 2h Qh Tc] [Qc]
HERO checks
Player3 bets $0.80, and is all in
Player4 calls $0.80
HERO folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Player3 shows [Qd Qs Ah 6c] four of a kind, Queens, for high
Player4 mucks
Player3 wins the side pot ($2.50) with four of a kind, Queens
Player8 mucks
Player3 wins the main pot ($12.10) with four of a kind, Queens
Player8 is sitting out
No low hand qualified

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Of course, now I'm STEAMING, but trying to compose myself (and save my computer screen from damage), only to get this beauty of a starting hand and do something I've never done before and that's go all-in preflop. Got one caller after long pause and it held up. Felt like a genius for about 10 seconds, but I'm probably not the best judge of that. At least I showed some aggression. Any thoughts, OHL gurus?


Full Tilt Poker Game #$0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Omaha H/L - ET - 2007/11/27
Seat 1: Player1 ($8.05)
Seat 3: Player2 ($9.90)
Seat 4: Player3 ($9)
Seat 5: Player4 ($10)
Seat 6: Player5 ($4.20)
Seat 7: HERO ($9.50)
Seat 8: Player6 ($9.35)
Seat 9: Player7 ($4.80)
Player5 posts the small blind of $0.05
HERO posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [5h 2c Ac As]
Player8 sits down
Player6 folds
Player8 adds $10
Player7 calls $0.10
Player1 folds
Player2 calls $0.10
Player3 folds
Player4 folds
Player5 folds
HERO raises to $9.50, and is all in
Player7 folds
Player2 has 15 seconds left to act
Player2 calls $9.40
HERO shows [5h 2c Ac As]
Player2 shows [Ah 7h 2s Kh]
*** FLOP *** [8h 8c Qs]
*** TURN *** [8h 8c Qs] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [8h 8c Qs 2d] [9h]
HERO shows two pair, Aces and Eights, for high
Player2 shows two pair, Eights and Twos, for high
HERO wins the pot ($17.25) with two pair, Aces and Eights
No low hand qualified

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Hand 1 is tough when you are getting used to this game. You get a top-tier flop for your hand, but take a closer look. you need any third low card, so 21 outs, 9 of which wheel you, 3 (if a 6 on turn) give you a wrap. So your odds for half the pot are great, and ok for the whole pot (based just on that), but back out the other 8 hearts (assuming someone has a flush draw with this much action) and figure someone flopped broadway, and your chances for the high are ice cold. You can call that flop, but with this much action, until you hit a non-heart low card you've GOT to shut it down after the flop call. Don't chase your lows like that. Even if you make it, can you be all that confident you're getting a full half of the pot?

Hand two is nice. In NLO8 some people push great AA hands (i.e. AA plus 2 or 3 and either fourth card suited to ace or another wheel) to the hilt hoping for the occasional sucker caller. You got one here with 72% equity preflop. Personally I like to gamble more with AA2w and get a decent chunk in preflop then press hard on any uncoordinated flop. This would have been a tough flop for that approach. Nobody can fault you for going AI preflop with AA2w, and many do just that at higher levels.

Now that you have more confidence and direction, you will learn quickly! Just remember that NLO8 is the "degenerate gambler's" poker, and you will be frustrated by donk happenings more in this game than perhaps any other. Avoid braying yourself and the luck evening out will take care of the rest.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

Once again, thanks a lot for taking the time to help me out, Rando. Although I realize there's still lots to learn, I feel like I'm at least moving more and more in the right direction. I used to feel like I was in a foxhole, but now it's like I'm charging the enemy. Way more fun this way.

Re: 5-10 cent PL OHL on Full Tilt
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here I thought I made a good play. I had nut low, but no high, but when third diamond hit on the river I went all-in since I had the A of diamonds and thought I could then bluff that I hit the flush as well and players would fold thinking they'd be quartered. And, yes, the folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's a good bet, but don't count on players folding "thinking they've been quartered", they may fold "thinking they're getting nothing."

i.e. a ten high flush draw may fold here. A lock low with a pair of fives easily may not, and then it's you wind up getting quartered.

Use sparingly when you only have the low. When you can add a high, as little as a pair even, it becomes different.