foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

Ok game is playing pretty decent, loose action preflop - but it is always loose passive. No one is really bluffing or betting or doing much of anything (except me obviously). CO is JAck for those of you who know him, crazy hippie dude. He just came to the table but I know he likes to be active preflop and postflop if the mood strikes as well. UTG is pretty tight.

In the hand, UTG has 5k, CO has 2.5k and I cover.

UTG limps, MP limps, CO makes it 40, button calls, SB calls, I call with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and UTG calls.

flop (200): A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

checked around.

turn (200): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I check since 5 ways this hand is pretty weak still, UTG leads 150. CO calls, and I decide to overcall and see a river since I didn't know what else to do.

river (650): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check. My thoughts here were UTG often has a flush and I can c/r him and trap CO in the middle who is a bit of a calling station for some dead money. Also I didn't want to lead out and get raised, I wanted to read bet sizes and re-evaluate.

UTG checks (very possible he still has a big hand but for some reason despite no action at all didn't like the board pair) and CO now bets 400. I can't put him on much of a hand since I know he likes to bet draws and JT and clubs both are good flop draws, I'm thinking A9 is likely except he's the type to auto bet an A on the flop so it's less likely even still, not to mention I have a 9. I'm having trouble putting him on a hand, especially one that can stand a check-raise, so I decide to call and hope to get an overcall from an UTG flush or straight or whatever.

Thoughts on hand? Every street comments acceptable (ok not preflop), this was the first time in a while I was genuinely confused. Felt pretty weak just calling the river but it felt like that may have been the right play. What say you?

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

You still beat a lot of hands, so you could always make a small raise to like 1K. Not many people can fold a flush given such odds (esp a highish flush).


I mean, a lot depends on how bad they are and that's hard to tell given your descriptions.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

All streets until river are fine, I probably play them the exact same way. I would expect jack to bet a FD after it checks to him, however, 5 ways he might want to play deceptively and not get checkraised off his hand because it's likely someone caught a piece of that flop. However, I would expect him to raise a flush draw on the turn unless he felt UTG was extremely tight and his flush was low (again, this is still unlikely). UTG is probably not sophisticated enough to slowplay this river with a hand that beats yours, so I wouldn't worry to much about him. I think you miss too much value from the random times jack shows up with a flush, and I would make it 1500 on the river and you'd be committed to calling jack's push.

dlpnyc21

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
All streets until river are fine, I probably play them the exact same way. I would expect jack to bet a FD after it checks to him, however, 5 ways he might want to play deceptively and not get checkraised off his hand because it's likely someone caught a piece of that flop. However, I would expect him to raise a flush draw on the turn unless he felt UTG was extremely tight and his flush was low (again, this is still unlikely). UTG is probably not sophisticated enough to slowplay this river with a hand that beats yours, so I wouldn't worry to much about him. I think you miss too much value from the random times jack shows up with a flush, and I would make it 1500 on the river and you'd be committed to calling jack's push.

dlpnyc21

[/ QUOTE ]

to me it seems like the times jack shows up with a flush are miniscule and that unless duck has a crazy image she can't cr bluff here - so jack probably has to fold a flush to her c/r (unless he's a c-station). I think UTG would overcall a flush vs. this action, although small flushes are probably a fold.

Had we known this would happen on the river, it seems like a much better plan to bet the river - but this is a bit surprising.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

Agree with everyone else that once you get to the river, c/r is better than calling. Hell, maybe you get an overcall with nut flush or 98 or something anyways. I think I would lead out on the turn, usually, though. Sure, your hand is not great. So if you get raised, you let it go. But you are often best and you should protect/get value. Your hand is unlikely to improve, anyways, so it's not a big deal if you have to let it go.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agree with everyone else that once you get to the river, c/r is better than calling. Hell, maybe you get an overcall with nut flush or 98 or something anyways. I think I would lead out on the turn, usually, though. Sure, your hand is not great. So if you get raised, you let it go. But you are often best and you should protect/get value. Your hand is unlikely to improve, anyways, so it's not a big deal if you have to let it go.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, my thoughts exactly. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

every street looks good except river. i dont see why you are doubting your hand that hard. i would just lead out big, like 500 or so. also the most likely boat for CO is 98 and i doubt hes laying that down so you're missing a ton of value there - also i have obv never played with CO, but you never know, he might make a hero call with flush or something. id just raise it and let him make a mistake.

dont know why but i get the feeling you had some crucial live reads, conscious or not, play into your decision making here leading you to go for the overcall instead of c/r. cant comment on those ofc.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

What does he/would he typically make that 40 raise with? What sort of range? From limited experience in this game a 40 raise is the equivalent of a limp, i.e., no one is folding.. is he trying to play a monster like AA or QQ tricky? I can't figure out a hand which makes that raise with a 9 in it.. the hands that make moderate flushes also seem slightly odd (unless maybe he is trying to build action with 10cJc or some hand like that). I tend to agree overall with the board that raising seems better, but I am concerned here that the only hand that can pay you is a made flush, and I find that pre-flop raise sort of odd to show up with a flush except for 10cJc. I think if he is not the type to get tricky and play AA, QQ this way, you should raise whether you get paid by a flush or not (maybe 8's full) since I can't see A9 or any other type of hand that would beat you play out like this.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

as played i would CR to $1000 and expect a call from a random nine as well as a weirdly played flush or whatever.

i would prefer to have lead a full valuebet on river as someone might get curious with quite a few possible hands here.

Re: foxwoods 5/10 haven\'t been this confused in a while
 

I bet-call river here, I think its pretty unlikely that anybody has a bigger boat, but you'll def get paid off and maybe even raised by straights/flushes. I mean if they shove you can fold, but I think thats pretty unlikely given how little the pot is now.

As played, I prefer a raise, mainly because I would have no idea how to play the rest of the day if the table saw me turn over a boat that check-called river on this board.