Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

I post here because the 200nl game at this casino plays a lot like the 50nl online (and probably even worse).

Effective stacks around $500, full ring (9 players).

I'm sitting in the hijack. Two limpers, I raise to $12 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I'm called by a loose aggressive (but not a stupid player) in the button and by one of the blinds.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Pot: ~35

I lead for $30, the button raises to $100, the other caller folds. I call.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Pot: ~235

I check. Villian leads for $100.

Hero?

Villian Info:

Villian calls a lot of raises from any position, has made some light calls. Generally when he raises I've seen him show sets, two pairs, overpairs, TP (with various strength kickers), and draws. Again he is loose and aggressive but not completely stupid. He has trouble getting away from TP even with weaker kickers and will chase draws for a flop bet (and sometimes raise his draws), but generally gets away on the turn. He loves any two suited, any Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, all 1-3 gappers suited or otherwise. He limps almost all hands except big pairs JJ+, and AK (though he tends to raise AK in position and limps AK OOP).

I've taken many pots away without showing hands, occasionally shown my bluffing hand, and the hands that have went to showdown have been winners.

I feel that given the deeper stacks, I completely butchered this hand. Would like some insights into some alternatives to playing this as well as what you might do on the turn as played.

In hindsight, I considered checking the flop for pot control given that the flop is pretty dry, and possibly just check calling to the river. His betting range when checked to just seems to be so wide, that I might actually get more value this way.

Another alternative might be a blocking bet on the turn, though I'm not entirely sure what this would accomplish. I suppose if he has a 9, he definitely raises and if he just calls I can check call a reasonable river bet.

His big raise disturbs me tho... I really feel he has a big hand on the flop. Maybe I'm a sucker and can't get away from AA, but I'm compelled to call and see what he does on the turn. I feel like if he makes it $175-$200 on the turn, it's an easy fold, if he checks, then I can check-call or a make a value bet on the river. I really didn't expect to see the $100 bet on the turn and didn't know what to make of it.

The pot is getting out of control for AA... grrrr!

Thoughts?

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

His raise isn't that big, it's less than a pot sized raise on the flop. 9's are a part of his range but so are hands like 87,76,54, and air. The turn card is a great one for him to bluff because it's pretty unlikely you raised with a 9 from UTG.

I don't play much live but I probably call this turn bet and call a reasonable bet on a blank river. If he shoves I probably puke.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

I'd 3bet the flop. You're almost always ahead here, so why not? Make it 300.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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I'd 3bet the flop. You're almost always ahead here, so why not? Make it 300.

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And fold to shove? Or call shove?

What range do you put the villian on? If he shoves in his last $200 after I make it $300, what do you narrow his range to?

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

If you lead the flop here (and it's a fine choice imo), then i would prefer a 3-bet after his raise. This hand makes me scared of playing with 250BBs behind lol, is everyone at the table this deep or just you two?

This hand is a really tricky one especialy with these stack sizes so i don't feel i can comment much because i'd probably butcher this type of situation aswell.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

on the flop his range includes 1010-QQ, any 9, as well as a few hands that have you beat. 3 bet/fold flop IMO. as played, it's quite tricky but his possible 45 gets counterfeited. so yes if you must just call flop, you must blocker the turn/fold to raise. either way you're sticking a few more bucks in but his range is more defined if you seize control IMO.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

also, try to change seats in a situation like this. sucks having this guy on your left..

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

This is a pretty sick spot it is the flop bet that make this really hard to figure maybe A9 or any overpair to the board. The problem is given the turn bet TP is obviously right on his range.

Calling is OK but what is our plan if he pushes river other than just puking as previous poster sugests.

Knowing what we know now a raise on the flop would give us the same information (as the river push) but puts the pressure on him to fold and we are a lot more confident we are ahead, but I would have probably played it the same way you did maybe c/r the flop or just lead out more on the flop.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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I'd 3bet the flop. You're almost always ahead here, so why not? Make it 300.

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And fold to shove? Or call shove?

What range do you put the villian on? If he shoves in his last $200 after I make it $300, what do you narrow his range to?

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I don't think you can fold this hand on the flop. If he pushes you have to call. In the 1/2NL game he could have all sorts of trash, but I'd put his range based on his flop raise at 44, 55, 99+, A9, AK, maybe even some weaker holdings like AQ or a smaller pocket pair (77 or 88). 67 even? You say he's a loose player, so smaller suited connectors are possible.

On the turn you're in trouble because he'll probably only call a shove here if he's got the 9. This is why you need to get your chips in when it's most likely that you're ahead. So you avoid situations like this turn.

Really though, the level of play at 1/2NL is so weak that you've gotta get your money in on this flop. It's as safe a flop as you can ask for with AA.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

Does anyone ever check the dry flop for pot control?

Also, someone mentioned re-raising the flop and folding...? How do we put in > 1/2 our stack and then fold? And actually a meaningful raise is going to be at least to $300, leaving me with $200 behind... seems awkward to put in that ratio and fold.

If I block the turn, how much am I blocking with? $150 seems to be a great bet because it makes it VERY difficult for him to raise without KK (unlikely) or a 9. The problem with that though is I have to call a river shove if I check the river.

If I block smaller, it makes it too easy for him to raise.

At the turn, I really don't think he has a set. I think once he nuts the turn he would check behind or make a smaller bet. I'm pretty much convinced he has a 9 since he's the type to play every 9 available (A9, K9, Q9, J9, T9, 98, 97, and 96s).

Ugh. I hate this hand.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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Does anyone ever check the dry flop for pot control?

Also, someone mentioned re-raising the flop and folding...? How do we put in > 1/2 our stack and then fold? And actually a meaningful raise is going to be at least to $300, leaving me with $200 behind... seems awkward to put in that ratio and fold.

If I block the turn, how much am I blocking with?

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I think his range is still undefined by his actions. If u 3 bet him on flop to $220 or so, he knows you have a monster and can't shove without a set or a ballsy straight draw (if so, nh). might be crazy but i reckon you can fold to a shove because he doesnt play A9 or JJ like this on the flop. Either that or fold to his flop raise if you don't like the smell of things but it's not like this is Dan Harrington or some nit raising you. I dont see how else OOP you can find out the strength of this type of players hand without 3 betting him with a strong favorite over his range. Either that or 3bet-shove the flop, but that seems ridiculous at 250bb deep. If you feel pot committed with 3 bet then go broke or fold on flop. mr. inbetween is not a great option IMO.

turn blocker i would try like $130 into a pot of around $240ish then see how he reacts. Same price as 3betting him on flop but more information gained earlier IMO plus you fold out the 9's/str8 draws that want to draw in position.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

The same size bet on the turn smells of a nine. The flop raise was to get rid of you with TP, but the turn bet is to keep you around.

I think I'd have played the flop the same way. Since you're OOP, he seems like a player you'd get more value from by check-calling reasonable bets.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

just river an ace and say wut up dawg

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

turn sucks because your deep. In your description you didn't address the key part of how villian plays. Does he tend to call down with his TPNK hands or does he raise and play for stacks, even if his kicker is weak?

I would only ever 3bet the flop for value. As in if I 3bet I wouldn't even think of folding when/if he pushes. If he doesn't raise very often on the flop I like flat calling and checking the turn.

The fact the 9 came is bad. But to say you have to 3bet the flop is results oriented that the 9 paired. Thats basically the worst card in the deck for your hand.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

Since it's a live game, I think your PFR was too small. Assuming you're playing with $5 chips, you can put out at least 3 or 4 chips as a raise, especially with 2 limpers ahead (who probably called with a single $5 chip, making it easier to toss in a few more). This should almost guarantee you position after the flop.

So say you make it $20 to go and get one caller (yes, I know everyone could fold, but compare winning a small pot to the position you were put in). Now the pot is bigger than the one you had, and you presumably have position over one player. Now you're in a much easier scenario and you can do pot-control since you have position.

But say you raised to $20 and the same scenario played out pre-flop (not at all out of the question in a live game). The pot at the flop is $60 and you bet $50. Now the button has to raise to $150 if he thinks you have AK. It's unlikely he has KK-QQ as he probably would have reraised PF. You're behind 99 and 55 (though unlikely to call $20 PF) but ahead of JJ, TT, 88, 77 and top pair. Since you're ahead of so much in his range and behind so little, I think it's easier for you now to 3bet since the pot's gotten big enough compared to your stack.

As the hand played out however, I think it has to be fold on the flop. If he really has trouble getting away from TP, then the 9 pairing on the turn is a big concern. 99, 55 and 44 are also well within his range given the small PFR, and I doubt he has KK-JJ. TT and 88 are possible, but I think draws are out. So it looks now like you're behind his range and should fold since your stack is still healthy.

I'm still a novice though, so keep that in mind...

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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turn sucks because your deep. In your description you didn't address the key part of how villian plays. Does he tend to call down with his TPNK hands or does he raise and play for stacks, even if his kicker is weak?

I would only ever 3bet the flop for value. As in if I 3bet I wouldn't even think of folding when/if he pushes. If he doesn't raise very often on the flop I like flat calling and checking the turn.

The fact the 9 came is bad. But to say you have to 3bet the flop is results oriented that the 9 paired. Thats basically the worst card in the deck for your hand.

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I agree with all three points. Is he going to raise the flop this deep with monsters, draws and air or is he playing like every other aggrodonk who turns his marginal made hands into bluffs. If you think his range on the flop includes top pair and TT and stuff I like a 3bet/call push. If his range is monsters and air I like a call/reevaluate and in that case that 9 is actually a good card for you.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

Id go into the station mode after his flop raise. Unless hes bad a flop push will only fold out worse hands. He might think his PP is still good or 54 just got counterfeited and hes trying to take the pot. The only hands I can see that beat you is a flopped set, unless he decided to raise with T9 or something like that which is possible but not that likely. Problem is your hand is pretty much face up so it comes down to if hes smart enough to realize it.

Vs an unknown I would call the turn and call a decent size river bet. If he pushes Id puke and steal his cards.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

i like 3 bet to like 350 and call a shove. i 3 bet because i dont think he raises the flop with a set or a bluff. i think we are ahead and want to get all the money in before any scare cards come...



edited cuz i misread the op

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

Why would you 3bet this flop? Theres hardly any draws and he folds alot of worse hands he might bet turn with.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

don't 3-bet the flop unless you are 100% sure you want to get it in. i dont mind your line thus far. would villan raise the flop with any 9? gotta ask yourself that, its the most key Q in this hand. is he more aggro or passive with these more marginal hands? i dont mind calling and checking the river. depends i guess.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

(**note**: results are in this post, if you are not interested in the results stop reading now)

Thanks for the thoughts. The check-call to river (providing he doesn't shove) seems like not a terrible option.

I think the only 9 he raises (based on his prior play) would be A9. He turns more into a calling station with more marginal TP's, and I'm not even sure he raises with A9, he probably just calls down with it.

I pretty much put him on 44/55/99/45 and a possible TT and less likely JJ (I think he probably re-raises with JJ, but I'm not sure because he didn't do a lot of raising pre-flop). Of the 3-bets pre that I saw the worst hand was KK.

I really didn't even consider him having a nine initially.

When the nine came out and he led, I was really confused by the bet.

My confusion combined with the growing pot with "just" an overpair led me to a fold, giving him credit for 9. I folded and showed, and he showed me his counterfeited 45.

Hindsight being as powerful as it is, it makes sense now. If he had 99/44/55/45 he of course raises the flop (which is consistent with his past play). He plays big hands fast on the flop. I'd seem him do it with other sets and two pair hands and overpairs.

When his "set" nuts on the turn, however, I believe he would check trying to induce a bet or a call from me on the river. Had I actually thought of this and considered what he was betting and then really considered how he would play his various nines, I probably could have come to the conclusion that he had TT, JJ, or the counterfeited two pair. I really hadn't seen him raise draws in a raised pot (he reserved this to in position in a checked around unraised pot).

I beat myself up over this hand quite a bit because I didn't remember Pokey's post ("THINK"). I think I got caught up in the growing pot size instead of accurately thinking about his ranges and past actions.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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Why would you 3bet this flop? Theres hardly any draws and he folds alot of worse hands he might bet turn with.

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why would you call down all the way with one pair? you 3 bet this flop because his range is crushed given the action thus far IMO. especially since live players always think everyone has AK.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

I would 3-bet flop. If he shoves, i would call but wouldn't be happy about it. I think he is raising with draws, a9, k9s, QQ JJ 1010. I think you're ahead of his raising range, maybe not 4-betting range.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

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Why would you 3bet this flop? Theres hardly any draws and he folds alot of worse hands he might bet turn with.

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why would you call down all the way with one pair? you 3 bet this flop because his range is crushed given the action thus far IMO. especially since live players always think everyone has AK.

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Because he will fold almost all hands thats behind. His range is crushed yes, but if you 3bet he will fold all bluffs and even hands like A9, but he will push sets and 2 pair hands. Theres no need to protect your hand better to let him think hes ahead or let him keep bluffing.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

I see what you're getting at Carte Blanche but would you keep betting here with A9 after getting called? I'd prefer to put pressure on him out of position, especially if we're going to call the turn for roughly the same price as our flop 3bet woulda been. It makes his hand more readable IMO. Many ways to skin a cat [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

Definately a tough spot

PF: no idea what his range is, but not 94/95. you say he wouldn't limp JJ, QQ, KK , which definately affects this hand because those are some of the liklely hands you could beat.

FLOP:
I think his range includes: 45, 44, 55, A9, 99, TT,
+ JJ, QQ, KK (even though you said he prob wouldn't limp those). It also may include some Suited Connectors with 9s. I don't see it deviating much from here, the only lkely draw would be 67 and that play (raising to 100 with a OE draw) is pretty crazy for B & M 1-2 if you ask me, so lets not include it.

I think your call on the flop is fine, as he could easily be betting out TT+ & A9 in addition to sets. SC with a 9 are less likely now, but still possible if he put you on a bluff with overcards and felt his TPwK was good

I can't really criticise the turn check, but i can say that imo B& M players tend to look at the $ amount of the raise, not proportion of the pot. So in their eyes, that Turn bet isn't small, its big or at least fine.

The 9 is a bad card for you, because all A9 and SC with 9s are now way ahead. The only hand it helps you against is 45.

I think you may have to FOLD, because i assume if you call this turn bet, you could def be playing for stacks on river.

Re: Live $1/$2 game, tricky AA, 250BB deep...
 

I play in a casino rarely but this is like never a bluff in my limited experience, abliet ALL at 200nl. You are dead here unless opponent is very dumb/drunk. Curse the dealer and fold. Oh forgot to add, 3bet flop for value and play for stacks. Unless I know the opponent is good, I assume they will felt A9, TT+ live regardless of how deep.

This is based on like 50 hours of live play at various casinos.