how bad is this?
 

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, SB folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Re: how bad is this?
 

3 betting the flop is an option, but this is by no means bad.

Re: how bad is this?
 

First of all, I'd have bet the flop, regardless of what the PF action was. You have the nut-flush draw and a gapless backdoor SD. You don't really give us any reads on any of these players, so it is hard to tell what you think they may be holding, but as played, I'd say you didn't make any mistakes. You had odds the whole way down. Only problem I see is that after the flop betting, you should have factored in another 3-bet and cap on the turn, which may have made your odds go down (anyone, is this incorrect?). This would make your implied odds go up, however, considering you can be sure you'll collect a few extra bets on the river if your last [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes in.

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem I see is that after the flop betting, you should have factored in another 3-bet and cap on the turn, which may have made your odds go down (anyone, is this incorrect?). This would make your implied odds go up, however, considering you can be sure you'll collect a few extra bets on the river if your last [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] comes in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't really matter, UTG usually has an overpair and won't 3 bet the turn since MP2 is saying he can beat an overpair. Even if it does get capped you're getting like 5 to 1. Also you don't really have implied odds if they have a clue.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Yeah, you have a huge amount of equity on the flop. Even a bit out of position, I like 3-betting it too. Your draws will come in by the river over 33% of the time, right?

Turn looks alright. Well played.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Thank you.

Re: how bad is this?
 

It sucks you got trapped, but I don't think is anything else you can do about it anywhere. YOu had odds to call two both times on the flop. And even if you knew ahead of time that the turn would be capped, you still would have odds to call.

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also you don't really have implied odds if they have a clue.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know. These guys are going crazy. We'll collect something on the river if he draw out. And the straight draw is somewhat disguised. Not that well since T8/86 were there on the flop, but it might get somewhat overlooked since the flush draw is the obvious one.

Re: how bad is this?
 

What's the question?

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It sucks you got trapped, but I don't think is anything else you can do about it anywhere. YOu had odds to call two both times on the flop. And even if you knew ahead of time that the turn would be capped, you still would have odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play this hand the same. now river the nuts pls

Re: how bad is this?
 

This is where variance comes from.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Looks good. Sucks to have your hand pretty much face up, but I don't think there's much else you can do.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Hey benny,

3-bet the flop. I might even 3-bet the turn too.

Re: how bad is this?
 

I dont see anything bad here I think you played your draw very well but maybe you should lead out on the turn if you are willing to call the raises.

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hey benny,

3-bet the flop. I might even 3-bet the turn too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, confusion bet, interesting! Would that forestal the cap, or create river calls? Suppose a 76hh falls. Can you now lead?

Re: how bad is this?
 

the only thing I do different is donk the flop

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might even 3-bet the turn too.

[/ QUOTE ]

looks like someone is already there for the straight, and/or a set is out so our equity lies primarily in the non-pairing flush-card outs.

Re: how bad is this?
 

only straight possible is mp2 holding T8 which is "discountable" imo. most likely you're against a set and overpair or two sets.

in that case you're almost breaking even on the money going in on the turn. 3-betting the turn is obviously not good, though.

pokenum -h ah 8h - 9c 9d - 7d 7h -- 2h 9h 7c 6s
Holdem Hi: 42 enumerated boards containing 6s 7c 9h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 8h 13 30.95 29 69.05 0 0.00 0.310
9c 9d 28 66.67 14 33.33 0 0.00 0.667
7d 7h 1 2.38 41 97.62 0 0.00 0.024

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
only straight possible is mp2 holding T8 which is "discountable" imo. most likely you're against a set and overpair or two sets.

in that case you're almost breaking even on the money going in on the turn. 3-betting the turn is obviously not good, though.

pokenum -h ah 8h - 9c 9d - 7d 7h -- 2h 9h 7c 6s
Holdem Hi: 42 enumerated boards containing 6s 7c 9h 2h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ah 8h 13 30.95 29 69.05 0 0.00 0.310
9c 9d 28 66.67 14 33.33 0 0.00 0.667
7d 7h 1 2.38 41 97.62 0 0.00 0.024

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it's pretty unlikely we're against a straight. If we do 3-bet the turn, it would be bad if UTG was planning on simply calling MP's raise since there was no need to put that bet in. Although, since we're not that far off of 33% equity, we don't lose that much by betting. In that case, do you think it's worth it for deception miles? I mean, OP played this hand exactly like a flush draw and if he does hit the flush on the river that doesn't pair the board, it's likely to freeze people up. However, if we 3-bet to make it look like a slowplay, do you think there is any value in that since it would be harder for them to put us on the flush draw, possibly letting us collect another round of bets on the river from someone with 99?

Re: how bad is this?
 

miles,

It is a pretty clear 3-bet against top and 2nd set. Max raises are going in no matter what we do so we might as well try and hide our hand by 3-betting. The current EV is going to be the same no matter what we do but our implied odds will be much better if we gas it now. The problem is when he has an overpair and will just call the turn raise but most people that lead into a flop capper are doing so with the intention of 3-banging it. The other problem with 3-betting is that we could have made a straight and it might slow them down. But if both of them have sets, I'd still be confident that the river would go 3 or 4 bets. If the turn was a total brick I'd probably go for it and hope that we get 8 BB on the river when we hit.

After coldcalling twice and calling two more twice it seems doubtful that we will get anymore then 2 BB on the end.

Benny,

Was the river a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I'm guessing that you have to lead at it the way the hand went down.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Your implied odds are good even when we play the turn like a draw - experience makes me think that this will be often 3-bet (and at least raised) even when a heart comes off. But yeah, I suppose if you gas it now, you may get it capped.

Re: how bad is this?
 

*grunch*
at turn we probably have about 14 MO so we get 2.3-1 so we loose a little when we raise and there are only 2 villians.

On the other hand if we see action at flop and we predict that turn also will be hot 3bet makes seanse to say other player that we dont have FD and if we hit at river flush we will get more cash.

Question is: is it enought earn at river to our sacrifice at turn?

EDIT: 3bet flop is to clean our A outs? (If PFR fold and all other players also fold then we are HU at turn so our flop raise dont have good pot equity unless we count we have cleaned A outs

Re: how bad is this?
 

Super Grunch

Preflop: I would call here since we are going to get 5 player. We would be looking to flop a flush draw. Flopping an A would be no good here I think.

Flop: We flopped a flush draw with a BDSD for maybe 11 outs. We should check here to try to pay the minimum to draw at out flush. When it gets back to me the first time for 2 SB, we are getting 13 to 1 odds and assuming UTG re-raises and MP2 caps we still are getting close to right odds to draw to the nut flush.

Turn: Straight completed. We are putting in 1/3 the money and while we developed an OESD along with a nut flush draw. I call first and second time around.

If UI I fold the river, non-heart 5 or 10 falls I go to SD. If the board pairs, then I have a really hard decision. I will go to SD.

Re: how bad is this?
 

I want that hand on the turn. I like it. Despite the capping and loss of the implied odds, it's still quite possible with the 15 outs.

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Benny,

Was the river a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]? I'm guessing that you have to lead at it the way the hand went down.

[/ QUOTE ]

unfortunately no. I think my river might have been the worst play. Is this the easiest check raise ever, or is the donk OK?

Full Tilt 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, SB folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

River: (27.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 30.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 8h Ah (straight, ten high).
UTG has Kc 9c (one pair, nines).
MP2 has 9d 7s (two pair, nines and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 30.50 BB. </font>

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the only thing I do different is donk the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you guys WANT to get heads-up vs. the PFR or is there something I'm missing?

Re: how bad is this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the only thing I do different is donk the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you guys WANT to get heads-up vs. the PFR or is there something I'm missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, yeah. I missed that one. donking here when the raise is to your immediate left is a very bad way to play a multiway hand with a good draw.

Re: how bad is this?
 

meh

Re: how bad is this?
 

I'm in the "whats the question?" camp.

You've got a nice draw with probably a slim edge. I don't go crazy 3-betting the flop and lol at 3-betting the turn, it would (probably) be terrible for your edge if one of your opponents fold.

This is one of those times where you're hand may be totally readable (because of your cold-calling), but that doesn't matter, you don't need to disguise your hands in a massive pot.

Re: how bad is this?
 

Wierd hand. Really wierd play by the villains. We estimate them to have much better hands then they have. Are the limits to soft theese days?

Re: how bad is this?
 

Weird hand indeed. I agree we estimate them to have much better hands than they actually have, but just when you think tou're giving players around you too much credit, and you bet for value.......they pop you one!

Re: how bad is this?
 

So you mean that it is more profit of thinking they have better hands? And winning theese with some profit, and loosing small thoose times they do have something.

Interesting problem.

Re: how bad is this?
 

this is all perfect and standard imo

Re: how bad is this?
 

Grunch

Good play on the flop, Pf-raiser is sitting right behind you so you can raise for value if he gets many callers.
The rest of the way you have the odds to call.