Is this considered a muck?
 

I am dealing for a home game and not involved in the hand. At the turn Player A checks, Player B bets, Player A declares All-In.

Player B instantly throws his cards face down touching the burn card pile. He hesitates for a second and says Call. I immediately say your cards hit the muck, he pulls back his cards and says that's not the muck pile.

The actual muck pile was on the other side of the table. (I was dealing from the side of the table.) What's the ruling?

For what it's worth, it happened so fast that no one else noticed.

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

that sounds like a muck to me

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

At first I was going to say this was definitely not a muck... but perhaps B was angle-shooting. Was he looking for a reaction from A? Pretending to muck, seeing the relieved look on A's face, and then retrieving the cards would be grounds for calling B's hand dead.

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

Any dead cards are part of the "muck". Understanding the reason for the rule gives the answer. Once any card touches any dead card, the idea is that it's no longer reliable to know which card was which. Yes, it might be possible to see it clearly and say "I know that card was the one he tossed." But this is not reliable, and raises new ways to cheat (don't like your card? toss it into the muck and retrieve a different one.) A card that's touching is indistinguishable from the cards it's touching.

In the future, don't have 2 muck piles.

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Any dead cards are part of the "muck". ...

In the future, don't have 2 muck piles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Burn cards are dead cards. They should be kept separate from "the muck".

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Understanding the reason for the rule gives the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is hard t understand the reasoning behind a rule that doesn't actually exist. In the OP the hand is dead for throwing it forward and face down when facing a bet.

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

He mucked. Kill the hand and move on. He doesn't get to throw the cards in, wait for his opponent to then say "thank goodness, I was bluffing" and then retrieve them (or to wait to see the expression on his opponent's face that says this same thing).

This isn't the same thing as might happen at a showdown--here he's facing a bet that he hasn't called yet. Once you've called and it's time to table your cards, you do often get a moment to rethink tossing your cards away (depending on the room).

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He mucked. Kill the hand and move on. He doesn't get to throw the cards in, wait for his opponent to then say "thank goodness, I was bluffing" and then retrieve them (or to wait to see the expression on his opponent's face that says this same thing).

This isn't the same thing as might happen at a showdown--here he's facing a bet that he hasn't called yet. Once you've called and it's time to table your cards, you do often get a moment to rethink tossing your cards away (depending on the room).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is correct. I want to clarify two things that are going on in this thread. If you are facing a bet and throw your cards forward (face down) they are gone, it doesn't matter what they touch or don't touch. If you are at showdown cards that are clearly identifiable can be turned up regardless of what they touch or don't touch.

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

who the hell throws their cards away face down and calls? If it was face up, totally understandable but srsly it's mucked...tell him to L2P and move on

Re: Is this considered a muck?
 

How many times, tho, do u see a player who is trying to show cards at the showdown and the cards go face down...

All hell ensues if they try to get mucked by the dealer...

Dealer will often show enough experience to ask if it is a muck, or push the cards back waiting for a statement or reaction... this should follow under the best interest of the game... when the other player complains that it was a muck... a dealer might say... "sir, if u accidentally tried to turn ur hand up and they flipped over, I would give you a chance to properly show down as well."

As far as cards hitting the burn... the sequence for burning under the edge of the pot and then each card forced under the next one is what is supposed to prevent any mixup of cards