Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

A few weeks ago I am at FW 10/20 and I get HU in a pot with the woman immediately to my left who raises me pre-flop. I have QT and the flop comes down QJx three diamonds. I bet the flop and she raises all-in.

I say to her "Should we turn our cards over?" and when she says nothing I just flip my QT over. She flips over just the A of diamonds. The turn comes T (not a diamond) and I say - that gives me two pair. The river is a blank.

She picks up her cards and throws them towards the dealer. They go about halfway from the 9 seat, well over the "betting line", but do not touch the muck. The A is still showing, the other card is still face down. The dealer, who is one of the worst at Foxwoods - and that is saying alot - sits there motionless for about 3 seconds. The woman then exclaims "oh goodness I have a straight!". She retrieves her hand from over the line and proudly displays her AK for the win.

I don't say a word at the time. Because I think it won't win me the pot anyway, and I was so angry that once I start venting it will take a lot to stop. Also, she is one of the worst players I have ever played against and I don't want her to get upset and leave.

On this dealers next shift I describe the scenario to a newly arrived player on my right, loud enough for the dealer to hear, and ask his opinion. He says "Thats awful you should have won that hand"... But he conceded that the Floor decision could have gone against me.

I do decide to not tip this dealer again for what amounted to about 6 pots the rest of the day. I blame the dealer because I believe that as soon as the cards were tossed she should have scooped them up and brought them into the muck.

I am interested in opinions about whether:
1) I should have called the Floor immediately
2) I should continue my tipping ban on this dealer. It should be noted that Foxwoods pools dealer tips - so by not tipping this dealer I am in effect punishing all dealers. Perhaps I should pick a favorite dealer and compensate by tipping them $2 per pot.

Thoughts?

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

The best hand won the pot-- sounds like the right outcome to me.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

I don't really think you have a major gripe here. If the shoe were on the other foot, you might think to yourself you don't deserve the pot, but if your cards were in fact not mucked, and the dealer did in fact wait several seconds, you probably would have been happy with the dealer and continued tipping him, right? There are many situations where a dealer knows he can't win - no matter which way he goes, he's going to piss off one of the 2 parties. So which way does he go? He'd be getting tipped by the other woman, and if you left you'd be replaced by someone who would tip. You probably both did the right thing by keeping that woman at the table.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

She's a [censored], but a [censored] with the best hand. Quit your whining.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

your objective is to keep this woman happy so she will keep playing 10-20. Period. Giving up this tiny pot is a small price to pay.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]


Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Momma told me, if I can't say anything nice about a poster, don't say anything at all about the nit.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Yeah, I have to agree w/ some of the previous posters. Seems like you're being extra nitty here. My main problem is the fact that you feel that the dealer doing the wrong thing (killing the hand) is the right thing for him to do since it happens to work in your favor. I could totally see you arguing the other way if you had the AK and the dealer didn't muck the hand yet and you realized you had a winner. Also when interpreting rules you have to make sure that the rule follows the 'spirit' of the game. Killing a fish/noobs hand when they misread the board is contrary to the spirit of the game.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted that Foxwoods pools dealer tips - so by not tipping this dealer I am in effect punishing all dealers. Perhaps I should pick a favorite dealer and compensate by tipping them $2 per pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Tip half the dealers $2 per pot and half the dealers nothing. That'll show 'em!

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

I think others are correct in saying you should not be upset - the best hand won at showdown.

Your opponent's "muck" was questionable. She pushed her cards towards the dealer, but one of them was face-up. Nothing touched the muck. It sounds more like an infraction of the show both cards rule...and I assure you the purpose of that rule is not to punish fish and award pots to second-best hands. I have many times seen dealers handle this rule infraction by remaining silent and waiting to see if both cards are turned up.

I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on the dealer's actions.

-Andrew

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

I think the dealer should have mucked the hand immediately when pushed forward. That didn't happen so the hand was easily retrievable and there doesn't seem to be any doubt those cards where hers so it is as it is.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

You should have asked her to turn over her other card so you could make sure she wasn't mucking a winning hand. Once you have her trust you can run every play in the book on her the rest of her life.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Exactly. Proper procedure is for the dealer to take a mucked hand and kill it immediately (burying it so it can't be recovered). Seeing as they didn't do that, and the women realized she had a winner before his hand was killed, she has a right to turn them over and be awarded the pot for showing down the best hand.

Jeff

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

The dealers at the Woods get berated so much (some deserved) that I can understand why they may be a little slow to muck a hand that is half exposed to them in a called pot or in this case an all-in situation. Had you bet and the player tried to muck or made a folding motion without calling I would gladly agree with you that the hand should be killed instantly.

Out of curiosity do you care to share which dealer it was? New or experienced?

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Do dealers keep their own tips at Foxwoods?

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

When I'm dealing, and a player at showdown tosses in the cards that way (one face-up, the other face-down), I don't want to muck a hand that was intended to be turned up. I'll hesitate a moment or two, to give the player the chance to retrieve the face-down card.

Anyone who thinks that my function is to look for opportunities to immediately muck face-down cards in an attempt to punish, does not understand my job at all (see: Jeffage).

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

If you're going to selectively tip, make sure you explain why you're giving the tip you're giving. Some dealers are good enough that I just give them $1 after the first hand and tell them it's because they deal fast. They know who I am and they deal fast the rest of the night at any table I'm at. Yippeee.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm dealing, and a player at showdown tosses in the cards that way (one face-up, the other face-down), I don't want to muck a hand that was intended to be turned up. I'll hesitate a moment or two, to give the player the chance to retrieve the face-down card.

Anyone who thinks that my function is to look for opportunities to immediately muck face-down cards in an attempt to punish, does not understand my job at all (see: Jeffage).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, I would rather make a mistake that results in the best hand winning, than make mistake that results in the best hand losing.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I'm dealing, and a player at showdown tosses in the cards that way (one face-up, the other face-down), I don't want to muck a hand that was intended to be turned up. I'll hesitate a moment or two, to give the player the chance to retrieve the face-down card.

Anyone who thinks that my function is to look for opportunities to immediately muck face-down cards in an attempt to punish, does not understand my job at all (see: Jeffage).

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, I would rather make a mistake that results in the best hand winning, than make mistake that results in the best hand losing.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm not sure if it's a muck I'll hesitate a bit.
But if you hesitate too long it's almost
encouraging the player to reconsider his muck.
Then the dealer is flirting with the "one player to a hand" rule.

How about 6 players at showdown. A-high straight on board.
One player tables his hand, other players start mucking.
Do you stop them from mucking and split the pot 6 ways?


[ QUOTE ]
The dealer sits there motionless for about 3 seconds. The woman then exclaims "oh goodness I have a straight!"

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds to me like she didn't know she had a straight and was mucking.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about 6 players at showdown. A-high straight on board.
One player tables his hand, other players start mucking.
Do you stop them from mucking and split the pot 6 ways?

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't stop anyone from mucking. I'm just saying that if there is any doubt whatsoever about whether a player is mucking then I'm not in a race to grab the cards.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
I say to her "Should we turn our cards over?" and when she says nothing I just flip my QT over. She flips over just the A of diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
She picks up her cards and throws them towards the dealer. They go about halfway from the 9 seat, well over the "betting line", but do not touch the muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The A is still showing, the other card is still face down. The dealer, who is one of the worst at Foxwoods - and that is saying alot - sits there motionless for about 3 seconds. The woman then exclaims "oh goodness I have a straight!". She retrieves her hand from over the line and proudly displays her AK for the win.

[/ QUOTE ]

She turned up one card during banter after an all-in. Then, after seeing the final board and the OP's cards, she "picked up her cards and threw them toward the dealer" with the one card remaining up. It's not as if she threw her cards over in an attempt to show them and one accidentally remained face down. She was DISCARDING her hand. How hard is it to see that? And yes, I believe in this case the proper procedure would be for the dealer to take this hand that she obviously discarded, turn the upcard over and bury it.

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks that my function is to look for opportunities to immediately muck face-down cards in an attempt to punish, does not understand my job at all (see: Jeffage).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not what I said at all - I think your job is to pay attention to what's going on and muck a hand that it is pretty clear a player intended to discard after what she believed to be a better hand, not give her a few minutes to realize what she actually had and correct it.

Jeff

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Soooo, you're bitching that you weren't able to win a pot with the worse hand on a technicality?

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Thanks for the responses. I have no defense for my nittiness. I will work on it. I definitely did not have the best hand and so I did not deserve to win the pot in that sense.

But when the player mucked, and she was clearly discarding a hand that she thought was a loser, I thought I had won. And I did think that the dealer did not do her job and that victory had been snatched from me by the jaws of incompetence.

However, after reading responses from other dealers I understand that maybe there was some confusion in the dealers mind, especially because we were both all in, and that in the end if she made a mistake that allowed the best hand to win maybe its not such a terrible mistake and could even be considered in the best interest of the game...

In that spirit I will move on, stop my nitty tipping ban, and continue enjoying playing the 8 or so hands she deals per down.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

Dealers pool their tips at Foxwoods.

Re: Foxwoods Dealer venting, scene 2
 

sounds like youre being a big dickheadd not tipping the dealer bro. If the cards do not touch the muck they are live. I hope I never deal to you.