NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Villain is pretty good for this level. He started out limping from the SB, but being very aggressive post-flop. He actually adjusted when he noticed I started trapping him by raising more from the SB. I've been raising a lot from the button, with Villain folding most of his hands. Whenever he called, I cbet and he folded most of the time. He pushed me of some hands though. He min-3-bet me once, but folded to my 4-bet (i had QQ).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (2 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero (t1585)
BB (t1415)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t150</font>, BB calls t100.

Flop: (t300) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t200</font>, Hero ???.

I felt really lost here. I think he knows I'm going to cbet regardless of my hand, so this would be a pretty weird line with an A. I'm not sure if Villain is good enough to second-level think here. I'm pretty sure Villain second barrels here with his entire range when called.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

This is a good opportunity to mini-raise otf . Since it's consistent with how I may have played top pair with this flop texture .

You only have to be successful 4/9 or 44.44% of the time to show a profit by mini-raising .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

I call and see what he does on the turn. Remember we have position.

I think minraising is terrible but Ill let others elaborate.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

There's nothing wrong with occasionally mini-raising .

If you've never used a flop mini-raise , then you might need to re-think your heads up strategy . I think making plays like this is an essential part in a heads up player .

There is a reason why players make threads on how difficult it is to read a mini-raise . Your goal in poker is to make your opponent's life as difficult as possible and one way of doing this is to make unusual size bets .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

i cant see what a minraise accomplishes (that's good for us)

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Mini-raising does have some advantages in that you lose the minimum when you're behind and you're building the pot when you're more likely ahead .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

I didnt mean minraising is bad in general, although I must say that I use it VERY rarely, my comment was related to this hand only.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

What I don't understand about minraising is that it doesn't fold out anything we beat. We also seem a little too weak to be raising the flop for value here. It might fold out second pair, which we probably wanted to let bluff again on the turn.

My thought was that if we minraise, second pair will probably call (and so will an ace of course). Now we're in a tough spot on the turn since we don't know whether or not we should bet, since our opponent could still have an ace or second pair. If we check behind, an ace is probably going to lead the river and second pair is probably going to see a showdown, unless we risk a lot of chips.

The only away to avoid this awkward river is with a turn bet, but with the pot as big as it is, it will need to be a big turn bet, which could cost us a lot of chips against the ace.

Now there is a chance (maybe it's even very high), that our opponent is donking the flop w/ air, but we probably don't want to raise the flop in that case, as they might give us a few more chips if we just call.

EDIT: This is just why I wouldn't suggest minraising. But, I'm curious to hear more about why minraising here is good.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Calling may likely be better but as I said , you only have to be successful 44.44% of the time to show a profit . So although I think mini-raising is positive EV , it's probably more positive EV to call and let him second barrel on the turn and go from there .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
you only have to be successful 44.44% of the time to show a profit

[/ QUOTE ]
Successful at what? Folding out an ace?

I would guess you're going to get any ace to fold exactly 0% of the time by minraising. And that includes A2. Maybe *some* opponents are going to fold an ace *sometimes* to a minraise (or any raise, for that matter, most people seem more than happy to get it in here with A2 or A3), but nowhere near 44%.

If "success" is just having the best hand, then as other people have pointed out (and you seem to have agreed), minraising is the wrong move here. Raising does get a little more value from some hands we're beating, but loses value against a whole lot more (because they'll just fold rather than bet again on the turn), and practically never folds out a hand that's beating us.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I felt really lost here. I think he knows I'm going to cbet regardless of my hand, so this would be a pretty weird line with an A. I'm not sure if Villain is good enough to second-level think here. I'm pretty sure Villain second barrels here with his entire range when called.

[/ QUOTE ]

If Op is pretty sure that he's up against a turn bet.

Folding is an option we save 200, its a weak play though with KK.

If we call, PS is 700 on the turn. i dont see villain betting less than 400.


Id raise to 450. Which accomplishes :

1)Opponent might shove, we fold. we lose 450.

2)Opponent might call, check turn, we could check behind on the turn, if opponent shoves river we fold, if he checks we value bet against a T. if we assume its equally distributed.
We lose 450 1/2 of the time. win 1200 + Value Bet.

3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP &lt; T's) a T or air. we win 500.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

I really think this is the worst spot in the world for raising any amount of chips given the info we have.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP &lt; T's) a T or air.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead.

Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 2-5 outs *if that*, seems really bad.

Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either.

*edit*:fixed out counts for hands that are behind. A lot of hands that are behind need running cards.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3)Opponent folds his hand which could be ( PP &lt; T's) a T or air.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is *extremely* undesirable, IMO. Those hands are where a lot of your value is going to come from when you're ahead.

Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but raising when we're going to get rid of exactly *zero* better hands, but lose quite a few worse hands that would be more than happy to put more money in later, and that are all drawing to 3-5 outs, seems really bad.

Of course, if I just call, I don't plan on folding to many turn bets, either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are not off-base at all. Ill Q this FT.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again and we cant fold, i might call flop, and raise all in on a non J or 9 turn.(Since i think a donkbet by villain here is a T alot more than an A) and the most probable holdings are JT or T9.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Tnixon , I never said that a mini-raise will get him to fold an ace , you did .

There are other hands in his range other than an ace . If he has a middle pair , you don't mind if he calls and if you're re-raised you know where you stand .

I don't think a flop raise is a bad idea if you expect him to call you with worse hands . He's making a mistake if he calls with middle pair which is a good thing for you .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

I kinda didnt read TNixons last sentence regarding the not folding to a turnbet.

While Im gonna call some bets vs. some opponents, I do not quite see why we cant fold. What do solid opponents two-barrel desert-dry A-hi boards with?

Unless I have a read on his betsizes I can comfortably fold to a 2/3 psb here. Noone at the 11s is ever valuebetting a T here and I dont quite see JJ or QQ in his range doing that either. So what do you put him on when you call the turn? A bluff. I dont like putting solid opponents on bluffs given that line + board structure.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Hra , I like the calling idea but it's NOT to fold on the turn . You may call a turn bet and possibly fold to a river bet .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thats my point, if we just call this is whats going to happen on the turn hes going to bet again

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and we call many bets on the turn because we're ahead of his range, and because that's the best way to get value out of pretty much every hand that doesn't have an ace in it.

If we raise the flop, we narrow his range mostly to hands that are beating us, and we've given free money to any ace that has us drawing ultra-thin. In addition, the ace can get even more chips out of us by calling our raise and checking the turn, which is exactly what many of the weaker aces are going to do.

Also, depending on the opponent, not every ace is going to bet again if we just call. Most opponents are going to bet the turn with even weak aces, especially if they donk out on the flop, but some opponents are going to check/call the turn and river, or maybe bet the river if we check behind on the turn.

Add that possibility to the times that they're betting the turn with a worse hand, and raising just looks worse and worse.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I never said that a mini-raise will get him to fold an ace , you did .

[/ QUOTE ]
Yet again you fail miserably at reading comprehension, because I specifically said that a mini-raise is *never* going to get an ace to fold, and asked for your definition of "success".

If your definition included getting an ace to fold, then it was clearly off-base. (but if it didn't include getting an ace to fold, then it was very strangely phrased)

If "success" just meant getting value out of worse hands, then there are better options, which you do seem to realize.

So if we're saying the same thing, why do you insist on being a jackass about it?

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Yea, a minraise is great. Fold out all hands we can thin value bet against later in the hand, or enough of them to make it -EV to thin value bet later in the hand and build the pot with a weaker hand.

Have fun playing the hand when he flat calls or reads the minraise as weak and shoves a T or something.

This is one of those spots that you get confused and think "if I were facing a minraise I'd fold everything except Ax + so I'll do that to him."

People don't think like you.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Don't raise so much preflop. There's a reason it's correct to raise more pf when deeper stacked- shorter stacked you want to give yourself room to maneuver.

Min raising to lose the minimum and to get value from worse hands is a terrible way to think in this hand because villian is not a robot and will not play his hand faceup.

Everyone seems to assume that if villian has an A he will auto check the turn and auto lead the river if we min raise. This is false. And don't assume that if villian has a T he will call our min bet and then check it down.

Also, if we min raise and he pushes we are getting good odds to call. And since there's no reason for him to take this line (leading) with an A I would be inclined to call a push.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

His raise pre-flop is fine considering that he's been very aggressive so he should get some loose calls from villain .

There is nothing wrong with raising 3x the BB if you expect to be called with worse hands .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

What i understand so far :

Preflop is fine. ( only objection is by abcjnich)

Raising on the flop is bad. We fold out hands that we have beat and get called/raised by better hands only.

Calling the flop ( knowing that villain will double barrell since OP stated so) and folding the turn is also bad.

Folding the flop is weak since we still might be ahead of his donk betting range.

Can anyone come up with a decent line ?

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Phatjeffrey , I think the raise pre-flop is fine .

I like calling the flop but I wouldn't fold on the turn . If you would fold on the turn so easily , then you're better off raising otf .

The idea behind calling is that you wish a player with middle pair , or a pure bluff to continue betting out .

So I like the idea of calling on the turn with the possibility of a river fold if he makes a substantial bet .
If he was bluffing or has middle pair , then you should expect him to check it on the river .

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Call flop/raise turn or call flop, call turn, call/checkbet/check river. Otherwise fold flop.

That's a lot of things to consider, but without more information I wouldn't really advocate a particular line as this is not a very common villain/situation (in my experience).

I like the call, raise turn line a lot if he's really leading OOP with a ton of hands and will call committed on the turn because I would play some Ax hands the same way.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

I also mentioned floating flop and raising all in on the turn before... i think it might be a good way to play the hand.

OP, would it be a problem for u if u uploaded the whole HH of the sng?

Id like to watch it on a replayer and see if i can get any information on villain.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

the problem with just calling against a T is that when he bets again like OP says he will do, we have to fold the best hand. this is a much bigger mistake in a pot that is now large than losing a little extra when we are behind

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Thank you all very much for the responses so far.

I agree that raising flop is bad for the aforementioned reasons. Also, I think villain is capable of bluff raising a min-raise here.

I think if I call flop I also should call on the turn. I'm still pretty convinced villain bets any ace and bluff on the turn, but he will probably check the river. If he has a ten or four he will check turn and river, allowing a value bet. I originally didn't think villain had a ten/four, so that's why I stated in the OP that he second barrels almost always.

However, some of you think he might have a ten. This means if villain has a ten/bluff often enough, I should call flop and turn and otherwise fold flop, right? What do you guys think is his distribution of aces/tens/bluffs?

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also mentioned floating flop and raising all in on the turn before... i think it might be a good way to play the hand.

OP, would it be a problem for u if u uploaded the whole HH of the sng?

Id like to watch it on a replayer and see if i can get any information on villain.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like raising the turn, since I don't think villain calls with a T. BTW: villain has not donkbet into me before.

What's a good place to upload the HH?

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

A lot of these players will check the river with a lot of aces.

Depending on board texture and player, I would almost rather see a river overbet than a river check from villain in this spot.

Regardless, it seems like the picture of villain is clearing up and you're probably calling flop turn and checking behind river (assuming you don't hit 2 outs or runner straight this hand).

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

ive used sendspace.com before... should be easy.

A river overbet after a turn bet is not very possible. with a 400 turn bet the biggest possible bet is 1/2 PSB on the river. So its either going to be a shove or a check.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
ive used sendspace.com before... should be easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've uploaded the HH to http://www.sendspace.com/file/yvaaeh. I hope it's useful.

Re: NLTRN $11: facing donkbet on A-high flop with KK
 

Never thought I would write this: Just fold the flop and wait for a better spot.

I feel dirty.

He is betting into you because he is afraid that you will check behind. He wants you to raise if you have an ace.