JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter


No real reads on CO, other then 16/14/3 over 60 hnds. The two shorties were the reason that I was at the table, but they have lost most of their stacks since I've been here.

I'll lay the hand out decision by decision, since this hand was pretty sick....

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

calls....
Edit: if the CO starts moving chips around, then you're in trouble and you pitch the hand...

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

This sucks.

I think you have BB and probably also BTN beat. The question is what does CO do. I'd call and probably fold if CO shoves and call BTN's shove. I really don't know what I would do if CO just calls and an overcard hits on the turn. Even if an overcard does not hit I'd think we are beat more often then not if he calls.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

All of your options seem problematic, as far as I can see. I almost want you to just fold here, which takes us back to pre-flop. Imagine that CO, who seems kinda nitty taggy, but only over a smallish sample, had 3 bet you without participation from the shorties, what would your response be? Call mostly for set value, partly to 'feel out' and hopefully beat a whiffed AK/AQs? Fold cause his range is basically QQ+? 4-bet (probably not)? It's a tough spot to be in in general OOP with JJ facing a tight player's typically narrow 3-bet range (at these limits.)

While I don't know for sure what I'd one-on-one vs CO if he 3-bet (maybe just pitch it pf, unless we were a little deeper), I'm almost certainly calling here pre-flop multiway, but only to try and flop a set. If I had better position, I could see what CO and BTN did when the BB shoves, and call if one or both fold. But here you don't have that luxury so I c/f non-J boards as soon as the action begins to build post-flop.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Yeah but can you really fold getting 4 to 1? I think the chance that CO has AK/AQ is bigger than the 20% we need to call.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I concede the weirdness of advocating a fold when we're getting 4 to 1, but I was unhappy with the reverse-implied odds scenario it was sucking us into. What if CO decides to peel with AK / smooth call with his QQ+, or senses the weakness of our call and adds AK to his QQ+ flop shoving range? We're either call-folding the flop too often or having to play a ton of horrible turn situations (in which we're praying for a J or two streets of check-check.)

(Plus we can't totally disregard BTN, who occasionally has something good here, unless his 3-bet cold-calling range is no better than his normal pf calling range, which can occur, but is unusual, and OP was vague on this matter.)

So I dunno about the 4 to 1 ...

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I smoothcall here, CO folds AK, AQ here and lets us know when he has a big pair. he wont bluff at the pot since it's protected and we can c/f the turn if he comes along.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Ask youself why did you call preflop and flop is going to be sooooo easy.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

we called pf for set value but would it not be a mistake to fold only to see CO fold, BTN calling with 88 and BB showing TT? Is this scenario that unrealistic? We only need the CO to fold, the other two are fish and can pay off with much worse than JJ.

What if BB only has 5$ - do we still fold? I think there has to be line at wich we change our decision from calling to folding I'm just not sure where it is 10 to 1, 5 to 1, 3 to 1?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Do you see a set on the flop?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

no

so you fold if BB bets $0.5?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

the only hand CO will be shoving that we are ahead of is AKhh, which is not a HUGE part of his range. As bad as this may be im calling this raise and folding to further aggression by CO, probably a leak

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I think calling here is terrible. If I am a 16/14 CO I salivate at you calling (oooooh dead money!!!) and shove ANY made hand, figuring BB to be generally weak or drawing and KNOWING that hero is folding because he is more or less announcing that with his call play here.

If CO can fold a big hand here (I think a shove on top of BB's lead looks damn scary, but a call looks super weak...), I shove. If I don't think so, I fold. Calling, to me, looks like serious donation. Plus, what the hell do you do if CO calls behind, aside from vomit?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I fold. I think someone has you beat on the flop (probably with a higher pair) and you are way behind. If you played this out to the river and won I would really like to see the hand history.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
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No real reads on CO, other then 16/14/3 over 60 hnds. The two shorties were the reason that I was at the table, but they have lost most of their stacks since I've been here.

I'll lay the hand out decision by decision, since this hand was pretty sick....

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

[/ QUOTE ]

u dont have implied odds calling with jj if that was your plan so I guess I snap call this?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

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Ask youself why did you call preflop and flop is going to be sooooo easy.

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Exactly. I'm folding

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter


No real reads on CO, other then 16/14/3 over 60 hnds. The two shorties were the reason that I was at the table, but they have lost most of their stacks since I've been here.

I'll lay the hand out decision by decision, since this hand was pretty sick....

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Hop in time machine
2. Go back 2 minutes
3. Open fold
4. Profit

As played folding sucks, calling sucks more, and shoving sucks the most.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ask youself why did you call preflop and flop is going to be sooooo easy.

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Exactly. I'm folding

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Don't think this what Corksah was getting at....but ok

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter


No real reads on CO, other then 16/14/3 over 60 hnds. The two shorties were the reason that I was at the table, but they have lost most of their stacks since I've been here.

I'll lay the hand out decision by decision, since this hand was pretty sick....

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero???

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Hop in time machine
2. Go back 2 minutes
3. Open fold
4. Profit

As played folding sucks, calling sucks more, and shoving sucks the most.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I actually think you did a fairly good job of explaining the situation

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ask youself why did you call preflop and flop is going to be sooooo easy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly. I'm folding

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Don't think this what Corksah was getting at....but ok

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I assumed he was saying you were calling for set value, if not then I completely misunderstood.
willyc outlines pretty well, when you're playing all your options seem pretty bad

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $11.80, <font color="red">CO raises to $50.35 and is All-In</font>, BTN calls $18.55 and is All-In, Hero???

And we have some shenanigans from the CO, which when I called I was worried about.

Obv, as I replied in an earlier post shoving this flop with the CO still to act is beyond horrible, we fold out AK/AQ/TT and only get called by hands that beat us.

Folding is just as bad, since we could very well have the best hand at this point.

I think calling was the only option, but I wasn't in love with it.

Now CO has shoved over the top of us, and been called by the last short stack....while I felt this was obv at the table, curious to see your opinions.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

you think calling was the only option, but you and i know why that is. as we talked about, in this spot you are either drawing to 2 outs or drawing very thin. it's unlikely that three opponents are going to table 77, 88, and 99 all at once. if you're ahead of all three players, which is unlikely in most situations here, you're probably going to need to dodge enough cards to make it a flip.

again, i'd say you're rarely ahead, and if you are you're flipping. you can't flat call the turn push, too, so i would say you either fold or raise, either option will save you some stress after the rest of the players have fun playing the ultimate schizophrenic-aggressive style (SAG).

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Well now I'm definitely folding. The only AK/AQ he could be shoving here are hearts, you have to be well below his range here

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

don't call the first bet without a plan, thats just silly. If you call the first bet, you have to be prepared for a CO shove...pretty easy fold, you're never ahead.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

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don't call the first bet without a plan, thats just silly. If you call the first bet, you have to be prepared for a CO shove...pretty easy fold, you're never ahead.

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What makes you think that I didn't have a plan???? I posted the hand because I felt it was interesting, and something none standard with the shortstacks and the action after the flop.

Fwiw, I think it's a lot closer decision if the last shortstack doesn't call AI.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

i never said you didn't. Just said it's dumb to call it without knowing how you'll react etc.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Some results for those posting in the thread


Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $25.30
SB: $48.10
BB: $18.55
Hero (UTG): $49.25
CO: $57.10

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="red">CO raises to $6.75</font>, BTN calls $6.75, SB folds, BB calls $6.25, Hero calls $4.75

Flop: ($27.25) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $11.80 and is All-In</font>, Hero calls $11.80, <font color="red">CO raises to $50.35 and is All-In</font>, BTN calls $18.55 and is All-In, Hero folds

Turn: ($87.95) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($87.95) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $87.95 Pot ($3 Rake)
BTN showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a full house, Fours full of Nines) and WON $84.95 (+$59.65 NET)
BB showed A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a full house, Fours full of Sixes) and LOST (-$18.55 NET)
CO showed K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Fours) and LOST (-$25.30 NET)

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Do you still have that time machine?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I think you played this well. Nh.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

OP, I hope the lesson you take from this hand (regardless of the holdings people showed down here) is that it's better to c/f a non-J flop than invest 35% of your stack OOP just to see what everybody else does and *then* decide whether or not to commit the rest. Yes, you're getting 4:1 when BB shoves, but you're also crossing the commitment threshold (and without even the benefit of seeing what your more substantial opponents are going to do.)

To be honest, if I talk myself into calling BB's shove (for whatever reason) and suddenly wake up to CO and BTN's all-ins, I just kind of sigh and call, because now I've (unhappily) placed myself into a pot-odds situation where folding seems a slightly greater evil than calling.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

so I still have a 2 questions here:

1. how small would the BB's AI have to be for us to call and why?

2. if for some sick, inexplicable reason we would have just called pf with QQ, would that change the situation in any way on the flop?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

call/fold prob.

Sucks if CO/Others shove TT or something, or combo draws - But if they do, i still think we're behind majority of time. Maybe even to the initial shover(but less likly).

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

I think you played it fine.

Hard for CO to bluff-shove when the pot is protected

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
1. how small would the BB's AI have to be for us to call and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

If our plan is to play for set value, our move on the flop is to check-fold when we miss, especially out of position. The rule of thumb is that investing more than 1/5 of your stack (effectively) begins to commit you, and bet- or call-folding beyond that becomes problematic, unless you're running a big bluff or (say) a card falls that completely destroys your hand or villain suddenly gives off an *exceptionally reliable* indication that your equity is terrible / you're basically dead.

Say BB has $5 and shoves, you shrug it off and call, CO surprises you and calls, BTN shoves all in, now what? That's a best case scenario, but you're still not thrilled, cause CO might have read BTN for a shove and is trapping more money in the pot. Your problem is your inability to control / anticipate the actions of two opponents in a re-raised pot who act after you. BB's stack size isn't really changing that.

2. If I show up with QQ here I shove over BB and expect BTN to call me incorrectly fairly often and take my lumps when CO has AA/KK. But I'm likely felting it pre.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it fine.

Hard for CO to bluff-shove when the pot is protected

[/ QUOTE ]

What if CO is Mike Baxter?

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

BB's all in is never small. If he had very little money left, he would push preflop. Stop sucking water out of the finger, the whole hand is pretty stupid. Fold preflop, you get no odds to call. Raise preflop if you think you have the best hand. And then follow through with your decision on the flop.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB's all in is never small. If he had very little money left, he would push preflop. Stop sucking water out of the finger, the whole hand is pretty stupid. Fold preflop, you get no odds to call. Raise preflop if you think you have the best hand. And then follow through with your decision on the flop.

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He def. has odds to call this . He is calling $4.75 and closing the action. He will flop a set one in 8.5 times so he needs to profit 4.75 * 8.5 = 40.37 when he hits. There is already 6.75 * 4 = $27 in the pot. He needs to extract only $13 when he hits to break even on set-mining the jacks. It seems VERY reasonable that the short stacks are committed to this hand already, not to mention that CO likely has a big pair and will at LEAST make some flop c-bet, which in a $27 dollar pot has to be around $10+

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

Why people with a hundred posts like to argue so much.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why people with a hundred posts like to argue so much.

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I am trying to learn why he does not have implied odds to call this PF for set value.

Re: JJ OOP, 3-bet pot 4 ways.....and mayhem ensues
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Why people with a hundred posts like to argue so much.

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I am trying to learn why he does not have implied odds to call this PF for set value.

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he does, easily