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-   -   Lloyd Carr Retiring (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=544431)

JackWhite 11-20-2007 02:48 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
For some reason you have chosen to launch a defense of Gary Moeller.

nuff said


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be really drunk or totally incabable of understanding the written word. I guess you missed my previous posts where I specifically said I didn't think Moeller was a good coach and that he never should have gotten the job in the first place.

I simply said I admired the fact that he was willing to use a no-huddle offense in his first game, which was very effective.

If you want to debate the merits of any coach, player or team, I'd be happy to do that, but first you have to actually read what I have written.

heater 11-20-2007 03:07 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For some reason you have chosen to launch a defense of Gary Moeller.

nuff said


[/ QUOTE ]

You must be really drunk or totally incabable of understanding the written word. I guess you missed my previous posts where I specifically said I didn't think Moeller was a good coach and that he never should have gotten the job in the first place.

I simply said I admired the fact that he was willing to use a no-huddle offense in his first game, which was very effective.

If you want to debate the merits of any coach, player or team, I'd be happy to do that, but first you have to actually read what I have written.

[/ QUOTE ]

There isn't one goddamned thing I admire about Gary Moeller and I question the loyalty of anyone who defends his tenure at UofM. He clearly lacked respect for the position he held.

JackWhite 11-20-2007 03:18 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
There isn't one goddamned thing I admire about Gary Moeller and I question the loyalty of anyone who defends his tenure at UofM. He clearly lacked respect for the position he held.


[/ QUOTE ]

Is this a level? It has to be. As previously stated in the last 3 or 4 posts, I didn't think Gary Moeller was a good coach, and he never should have gotten the job in the first place. How many times do I have to say that before you stop telling me how much I am praising Gary Moeller?

If somebody said you were bad at your job and you never should have gotten it in the first place, would you interpret that as a compliment?

heater 11-20-2007 03:22 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, Gary Moeller's winning percentage at UM was 77%. Lloyd Carr's is 75%. Amazing that some consider Carr a good coach, yet Moeller is considered a failure. Which is the thing I always point out when a Carr apologist tells me about Lloyd's great winning percentage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was starting from here.

JackWhite 11-20-2007 03:30 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, Gary Moeller's winning percentage at UM was 77%. Lloyd Carr's is 75%. Amazing that some consider Carr a good coach, yet Moeller is considered a failure. Which is the thing I always point out when a Carr apologist tells me about Lloyd's great winning percentage.


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I was starting from here.


[/ QUOTE ]

When I posted that Carr and Moeller's winning percentage at UM were almost identical, it wasn't done to praise Moeller, it was done to illustrate that people who defend Carr based on his winning percentage, must also defend Moeller as a good coach. Or John Cooper at OSU, and many others who had great winning percentages.

Bottom line, imo: If you are coaching at an elite program with access to great talent, you have to be a [censored] up of biblical proportions not to have a good winning percentage. As previously stated, Gary Moeller and John Cooper had great winning percentages. Does anybody consider them really good coaches? If not, then how do the same people consider Carr a good coach based on that same criteria?

heater 11-20-2007 03:56 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, Gary Moeller's winning percentage at UM was 77%. Lloyd Carr's is 75%. Amazing that some consider Carr a good coach, yet Moeller is considered a failure. Which is the thing I always point out when a Carr apologist tells me about Lloyd's great winning percentage.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I was starting from here.


[/ QUOTE ]

When I posted that Carr and Moeller's winning percentage at UM were almost identical, it wasn't done to praise Moeller, it was done to illustrate that people who defend Carr based on his winning percentage, must also defend Moeller as a good coach.

[/ QUOTE ]

People who defend Carr based solely on his winning percentage are missing out on the big picture.

JackWhite 11-20-2007 04:27 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
People who defend Carr based solely on his winning percentage are missing out on the big picture.


[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. You liked Lloyd because he representated the school well and ran a clean program. DVaut had a good post in this thread detailing how Carr was willing to look the other way or give a slap on the wrist to certain players who broke the law or team rules, but we'll leave that aside.

Like you, I think representing the University and running a clean program are extremely important. Ethics and integrity should not be compromised to win games, imo. However, this reminds me of an old Chris Rock routine. Rock told a story about a guy bragging because he had never been to jail. The Rock reply: you shouldn't go to jail. That is to be expected, it is not necessarily something you should be bragging about. I feel a little bit like Rock when talking about Carr on this issue. Yes, he generally has represented the school well and ran a clean program, but that is to be expected, at least at Michigan.

I'm willing to give him a little credit on the matter, but I feel uncomfortable heaping praise on someone for doing what they are expected to do: not break a lot of rules or go on drunken tirades.

I do wish him well in whatever he decides to do next. He's a nice guy (except to sideline reporters trying to do their job), I just don't think he was a top notch football coach. He was a guy probably destined to be a career assistant until fate intervened.

TripleH68 11-20-2007 09:32 AM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'd be very happy with Miles. I would like Brian Kelly as well. I'd like a first call being made to Tedford (and in an ideal fantasy world, Stoops and Meyer). All academic as it is very, very, very likely it is Les. Meanwhile there will be hand-wringing over recruits wavering. We'll lose a couple. Such is life. It will go on.

I wound up participating in an impromptu interview with a Saginaw sports reporter for the local news station. Hopefully I didn't say anything dumb.

Thanks Lloyd. You were frustrating and could have hired some better assistants (%#$@ Debord) but you were intelligent and a fine leader and representative for the university. You made Sparty "bow down", owned Penn State, and did very well against a strong Wisconsin program. You gave us our only MNC in 50 years. You did well against a host of great OSU teams, although not as well as we'd have liked. Only 1-3 in Rose Bowls, but then that's not a new Michigan tradition. And you went 4-2 against the SEC in bowl games despite their Southern Speed.

Perhaps most importantly, you stepped down at the right time. Unlike PSU and FSU, we don't have a senile old man at the helm that the powers that be can't bring themselves to pull away. Next year is a rebuilding year but there is much talent, the program is still strong and the next coach will have a lot to work with. Enjoy retirement.

Now let's go Les!

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always thought Lloyd to be a good man and was starting to feel a soft spot for him. But now I am thankful he coached so poorly in his final game so there can be no doubt his time has come.

fmxda 11-20-2007 12:17 PM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
We want a new Carr with Les Miles

DVaut1 11-20-2007 04:21 PM

Re: Lloyd Carr Retiring
 
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a.../71120011/1048

Bodoglife.com has posted odds on who the next Michigan coach will be:

Les Miles, LSU coach -- 2/1
Kirk Ferentz, Iowa coach -- 9/2
Mike Trgovac, Carolina Panthers defensive coordinator -- 5/1
Brian Kelly, Cincinnati coach and former Central Michigan and Grand Valley coach -- 6/1
Ron English, U-M defensive coordinator -- 6/1
Bret Bielema, Wisconsin coach -- 7/1
Bobby Petrino, Atlanta Falcons coach -- 10/1
Jon Gruden, Tampa Bay Bucs coach -- 10/1
Jim Harbaugh, Stanford coach and U-M alum -- 10/1
Bill Cowher, ex-Pittsburgh Steelers coach -- 15/1
Field (all others) -- 2/1


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