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-   -   November Low-Content Thread (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=536645)

private joker 11-02-2007 12:55 AM

November Low-Content Thread
 
Working sucks. I've been stuck at my day job for 6 days/wk and up to 11 hrs/day. This means 2 trips to Commerce in the past 3 weeks.

I have, however, moved up to 5/10 6-max online so I can play for like an hour after work and get in 200 hands, far more than I would in a normal 5-hr session at Commerce.

Plus, people hand me their money for free, like in this hand:

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (12.70 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.70 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js As (two pair, jacks and fours).
Button has 9s 9c (two pair, nines and fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 14.70 BB. </font>

stinkypete 11-02-2007 12:57 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
being a fish on a heater is much better than actually being good at poker

Captain R 11-02-2007 01:04 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
being a fish on a heater is much better than actually being good at poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoots, I thought PJ was going to say the hand was reversed and he was the villain in this hand!

stinkypete 11-02-2007 01:05 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
being a fish on a heater is much better than actually being good at poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoots, I thought PJ was going to say the hand was reversed and he was the villain in this hand!

[/ QUOTE ]

my comment had nothing to do with PJ or his hand

Mr. T 11-02-2007 02:07 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
being a fish on a heater is much better than actually being good at poker

[/ QUOTE ]

I envy the fish sometimes because I know I'm not capable of the type of heaters that they can go on. Maybe there's something to this and I need to just stop trying to play well and embrace my inner fish, because I desperately need a heater.

ship it pls 11-03-2007 03:09 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
super brag

i ran hot as the sun tonight: 9 racks in 9 hours,

AA good in 4/5 pots and all had 4+ ppl and 4+ bets pre

i won 2 pots of over 1k with A-high in 4 way action

i was able to c/r 3 streets on one hand

i hit 4 gut shots in multiway pots

i got 3 bet by a rock on QJT4 board in 4 way action, and did not have to chop my AK

hoppscot22 11-03-2007 04:20 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
super brag

i ran hot as the sun tonight: 9 racks in 9 hours,

AA good in 4/5 pots and all had 4+ ppl and 4+ bets pre

i won 2 pots of over 1k with A-high in 4 way action

i was able to c/r 3 streets on one hand

i hit 4 gut shots in multiway pots

i got 3 bet by a rock on QJT4 board in 4 way action, and did not have to chop my AK

[/ QUOTE ]

how old are you... you cant be all that good at the pokerz... the 30 game at the park is a joke

- john

ship it pls 11-03-2007 12:02 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
24, run hot as sun &gt; good at pokerz, agree

sternroolz 11-03-2007 06:59 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
I unfortunately am missing the awsome games that run at Commerce during donkament time. I was lucky enough to get 2 hours in as I was passing by Commerce last night and might get a few hours in Thursday night, but thats it [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Anyway, I had about ten posts of awesome stories from that two hours but deceided instead to do a brief summary:

Sat down at new $20-40 LHE table so nit filled that 5 players were arguing about who was higher on the board so they could choose seats.

Thankfully was quickly moved to super awesome table featuring a donkey tournament player who thought he was really good and The Mongoose, whom I love and adore even if he did send off from my table once with "Y'all can kiss my black ass".

Any table The Mongoose(refers to himself in the third person) is at is guaranteed to be super awesome. When he runs bad, he spews chips like no other. When he runs good, he is super awesome at tilting entire tables. He can rake pot after pot from me with 26 for all I care. He is awesome.

Tournament donkey berates The Mongoose for playing said 26o. I empathize with The Mongoose but do not interject into the conversation as clearly The Mongoose is a grown man and can handle himself. His final statement of the conversation is "The Mongoose kills cobras".

Said tournament donkey proceeds to win the min against my A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on an all heart flop where he flops the flush with 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], played UTG 2 hands after berating The Mongoose, by failing to c/r me on any street and instead taking the horrible awful line of c/c, donk, donk.

Cindy Violette smiled at me. I need me some milf.

brick 11-03-2007 07:46 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
quick question

how many full BB mistakes can you make in a typical CA mid-stakes game per hour and still be a decent winner. e.g. you play solid poker most the time but then make a few stupid mistakes that are almost a full BB mistake.

Maybe my question answers itself. If great player who can win 1 BB per hour, then a good player who makes a "Full BB Mistakes" every other hour would only be a .5 BB per hour winner. (assuming they played the same otherwise)
Is this correct?

ProfessorBen 11-03-2007 08:08 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Most mistakes are a fraction of a BB/100. It's not like every time you miss a value bet you lose 1BB/100 because 1) That situation probably does not come up every once every hundred hands and 2) You aren't always ahead or behind the times you are called. It's fractional.

SNOWBALL 11-03-2007 08:24 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
quick question

how many full BB mistakes can you make in a typical CA mid-stakes game per hour and still be a decent winner. e.g. you play solid poker most the time but then make a few stupid mistakes that are almost a full BB mistake.

Maybe my question answers itself. If great player who can win 1 BB per hour, then a good player who makes a "Full BB Mistakes" every other hour would only be a .5 BB per hour winner. (assuming they played the same otherwise)
Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning is basically right, but your assumption that the most a great player can win in these midstakes games is 1bb hour is wrong I think.

brick 11-03-2007 09:59 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Understood. I just made about 5 full BB mistakes (not the fractional ones, the kind where I was behind 98% of the time) in a 10 hour session. Trying to feel sorry for myself and decide if I should quit poker.

ProfessorBen 11-03-2007 10:20 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
Understood. I just made about 5 full BB mistakes (not the fractional ones, the kind where I was behind 98% of the time) in a 10 hour session. Trying to feel sorry for myself and decide if I should quit poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do these situations happen every 100 hands? Do you make the same mistake everytime? If so, then you cost yourself, 5BB/100 . Otherwise, again, fractions of a BB/100.

Just because you make a mistake where you are behind 95% of the time, because 1. pot size 2. it just doesn't happen once every 100 hands.

brick 11-03-2007 11:31 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
In the grand scheme they are fractions. I tend to make these mistakes more when I'm stuck and they tend to be the same thing over and over. How much do they cost me on average? I don't know, but I know that I set fire to about 5BB yesterday.

Captain R 11-04-2007 12:04 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Brick, it sounds like you made 5 BB of realized dollar mistakes. In other words, if you had made decision A instead of B, you would have made/saved an extra BB here and there.

But like Ben says, this is bad accounting, because these aren't 5BB worth of Sklansky dollar mistakes. Your EV in all of these decisions aren't -1BB per mistake, they're less than that.

I also agree that a good player can make more than 1BB/hr. in the sick California games. But even good players make -EV decisions every session. It's pretty hard to make a full -1BB EV decision, so I think the difference between a good and break-even player is the sum of several fractional EV mistakes that tend to occur over the course of an hour. So good players are making "less than optimal" EV decisions every session, they're just making less than the bad players.

Don't be too hard on yourself, good players go on tilt and have sessions where they play like a jacka$$ -- everyone has these kinds of days. No one can play their A-game every minute of every hand, the goal is just to try to do your best as often as you can.

Garland 11-04-2007 12:31 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]

Don't be too hard on yourself, good players go on tilt and have sessions where they play like a jacka$$ -- everyone has these kinds of days. No one can play their A-game every minute of every hand, the goal is just to try to do your best as often as you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this to an extent. We don't play optimally (A-game) 100% of the time. Everyone goes on "tilt" meaning everyone has moments where they let their emotions dictate their decisions. I don't agree that all good players have sessions where they "play like a jacka$$ and has those kind of days". It's just way too destructive to play like that for an extended period of time. If you're going to be a good player, you'd better be able plug the tilt leak quickly within the session.

Garland

Sailboats 11-04-2007 01:48 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
I have held off long enough(1 week), time to go play some poker.

brick 11-04-2007 03:14 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
I appreciate your advice not to go too hard on myself but I'm an idiot.
I had a big dream to come to LA and crush the easy games that everyone talks about. I took extended leave from work, took a month off poker, read another poker book, slept in like never before and then finally hit-up LA.

Problem was I has a decent bankroll but a severly lacking emotional bankroll. Also I was used to playing 20-40 in a very easy game with a small player base of very average players.

The LA games played differently because they are much more variable than what I was used to. There are many more players who call themselves "pros" and play long hours and probably win, there is a lot more NL hold'em so people tend to think longer about decisions, there is lot more 3-betting PF, ect.
I'd find games that were great one min and very average the next.

So I played 20 for a while, took a failed shot at 40, and settled into a routine only to find myself running really bad. Then I found myself getting confused by strange players, trying to adapt, and short on emotional bankroll.

I know everyone talks about having a such a huge edge in CA mid-stakes, but based on my experience, results, variance simulations, and critical thinking, I likely have less than a .5BB per hour edge.

Running a few simulates on Homer's steak simulator and it's easy to see that with a small winrate huge breakeven/losing streaks are likely.
http:// help_please1.tripod . com (no spaces the filter is screwing with this link)

After having seven (7) 20BB+ losing sessions in a row it's time to reevaluate. Yes, I've run bad before, know what it's like, and know what it takes to get through.

I was hoping that I had improved enough so that my edge would be greater and variance smaller but doesn't seem like that's the case.

cliff notes: play within your emotional bankroll



brick 11-04-2007 04:04 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/543/33661325bn7.jpg

Edited to provide link to image because this was really annoyingly huge and screwing up the thread width

Sailboats 11-04-2007 06:02 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
i won some monies finally... at the Commerce 20. Hopefully November is not like October. Brick if anything i had a bad run last month and dipped in the red five figures sigh. It could be your game, players, or a number of different factors. You just have to take a rational look at your play and cards.

Sidenote-- Coco stepped down from 40 to 20 and wow. This guy read a poker book or something... he was playing TAGish... raise or fold pre-flop, 3-bet with high cards on the flop, 3-bet preflop AQs. It wasn't really working but it was interesting to watch.

MitchL 11-04-2007 06:06 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Is Coco Armenian?

Sailboats 11-04-2007 06:09 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
yes with a beard and glasses... $3,500

Michael Davis 11-04-2007 07:04 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
"3-bet with high cards on the flop"

Yeah, good play.

-Michael

surfdoc 11-04-2007 10:48 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
yes with a beard and glasses... $3,500

[/ QUOTE ]


Pretty sure I have played with this guy. If it is him, my main memory of him was when I was coaching a buddy and sat with him in a 9/18 commerce game maybe back in July or so. Coco sits down and tries to control the game. I make some play where I put in a bunch of bets with the second best hand against him and as he stacks my chips he says unsolicited, "I see how play. You know I play 100/200?" I just stare at him sort of at a loss for words and my friend is looking at me like "dude wtf" and all I could come up with is "Oh really, that's nice."

goofball 11-04-2007 11:03 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
One time I raised UTG with 99 and Coco (to my immediate left) agonized before showing me JJ and folding.

surfdoc 11-04-2007 11:06 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
One time I raised UTG with 99 and Coco (to my immediate left) agonized before showing me JJ and folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure but he would have autocalled with QT.

The Dude 11-04-2007 11:43 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
One time in the Commerce 40 game Coco raised UTG. He got 3 coldcallers, SB called, and I 3-bet from the BB with AKs. He folded his AKo.

The Dude 11-04-2007 11:48 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
By the way, last night graveyard was the best I've ever seen the Bellagio 30-60 game. I got to cold-cap ATs in an obviously correct situation, I got to put in 8 BBs postflop HU w/ KQ as a pair of Ks, and I won 65 bets in 5 hrs (my biggest career hit the 30 game).

Good times.

Heisenb3rg 11-04-2007 12:34 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
i miss commerce *sniff*

My highest local game is 20/40. It requires a 2 hour drive followed by 2 hour weighting time. It has over priced food and inconsistant skill levels (sometimes its a tough game).

Counting the days till my debts payed off...

sternroolz 11-04-2007 01:17 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Brick,

Without an ability to avoid tilt, you are dead in Commerce games at any level. You really have to be able to look at the 72o that cold called 4 pf and hit runner runner 2 pair and say "nice hand sir".

BTW, those guys 3 betting don't have jack. The favorite play of donkey asian players in Commerce $20-40 is to 3 bet TAG pf raisers in 4 way pots with like 44.

brick 11-04-2007 01:40 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
&gt;You really have to be able to look at the 72o that cold called 4 pf and hit runner runner 2 pair and say "nice hand sir".
I usually do pretty well until it happens 6 times in a row.

&gt;those guys 3 betting don't have jack
but they always flop a set!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Howard Beale 11-04-2007 02:10 PM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]
&gt;You really have to be able to look at the 72o that cold called 4 pf and hit runner runner 2 pair and say "nice hand sir".
I usually do pretty well until it happens 6 times in a row.

&gt;those guys 3 betting don't have jack
but they always flop a set!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I just skimmed your problem-posts and here's my 2 cents:

Once a player achieves a certain level of technical skill the most important thing he MUST do is maintain emotional control. If he can't he shouldn't play. It sounds like maybe the Cali games might not be for you. How about coming back to Phoenix or go up to LV? The games up in LV play a bit more 'sanely' and the games in Phoenix are not quite up to the LA craziness. Maybe it would be better for you.

Also: Players tend to bash themselves about their mistakes and how much they cost themselves and start adding up what their win would be for the year if they didn't make them and come up with something like 'I'd be driving a Benz if it wasn't for these damn bad plays' but I don't think they're as bad as many of us think they are. We also make money when we make mistakes and it tends to even things out to a degree. I know that I make plenty of bone-head plays that end up winning big pots and while they probably don't quite make up for the bone-head plays that lose me some money they DO reduce their effect. My point: It's probably not as big a leak as you think and it's possible that it's just that you're in a game you're not prepared for.

Schmitt 11-05-2007 01:01 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
I've never had my own graph before. This is since the start of the weekend. I'm hoping to have a +$6,000 month. I'm playing 10/20 Limit (live), usually about 4 hours a day. Is this a realistic goal?

http://www.chickenschmitt.com/images/668.gif

ship it pls 11-05-2007 01:10 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
not realistic goal imo, possible but not plausible... 2.5bb/hr is sick hot for live cards... i'd try 3k or 4k for the month if you are playing 100-150 hrs, but i also think monetary goals are incorrect measure with variance and such - gluck though

MitchL 11-05-2007 01:20 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Lol @ monthly results meaning anything in live poker.

Schmitt 11-05-2007 01:22 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
I thought so. I must run crazy good because the last 3 months I've averaged 3.7BB per hour.

Ahh well I'll let you know how I go.

brick 11-05-2007 01:56 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Howard/Garland/J-Dub,
Good to meet you guys along the trip. Thanks for your constructive feedback. I'm going to move down for a while and take occasional shots at 20/40.

I've already won 64BB today playing 25cent/50cent 6 max!!
plus I'm going to vegas next week so I can't give up yet.

ImBetterAtGolf 11-05-2007 02:36 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
[ QUOTE ]

Thankfully was quickly moved to super awesome table featuring a donkey tournament player who thought he was really good and The Mongoose, whom I love and adore even if he did send off from my table once with "Y'all can kiss my black ass".

Any table The Mongoose(refers to himself in the third person) is at is guaranteed to be super awesome. When he runs bad, he spews chips like no other. When he runs good, he is super awesome at tilting entire tables. He can rake pot after pot from me with 26 for all I care. He is awesome.

Tournament donkey berates The Mongoose for playing said 26o. I empathize with The Mongoose but do not interject into the conversation as clearly The Mongoose is a grown man and can handle himself. His final statement of the conversation is "The Mongoose kills cobras".

Said tournament donkey proceeds to win the min against my A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on an all heart flop where he flops the flush with 10[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], played UTG 2 hands after berating The Mongoose, by failing to c/r me on any street and instead taking the horrible awful line of c/c, donk, donk.



[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of poker feats:

Was in the game sternroolz mentions above and Mongoose and his wife managed to get all in, together on the same hand, 3 separate times. That's one heck of a marriage. By the way, 5 minutes after Mongoose took some heat about the 62o (he explained that unlike 92o you could make a straight out of it), he face up mucked a straight on the river in a huge 3-way pot becuase "i've got no luck with the bottom end of a straight". His hand was good. By the way, i wasn't the T7s donkey because i'm way too much of a nit to play T7s anywhere, though i am a donkey.

In what may be a first, i played lhe at the Commerce and at the Crown Casino (Melbourne, Australia) in the same "day", separated only by a 16hr flight and nothing else. Unfortunately biggest game they had was 10/20, but if the 20/40 goes regularly, it might be worth the flight. Fat rake there, but no dealer tipping.

that_pope 11-05-2007 02:37 AM

Re: November Low-Content Thread
 
Bah, guess im forgettable, or else it wasn't nice meeting me. Just had a very very good turn of events the last 2 days. I was drinking heavily and watching the ASU game yesterday, and had 5k in my wallet all ready to burn it in a 40/80 or 60/120 game, but didn't get a ride, and passed out instead. Then I won about 60bbs in a 20/40 game today in 10 hours...and played AA amazingly against Howard, although he doesn't like my 'change up' play. Maybe he will think twice when value betting next time.


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