Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

I have been looking for better spots to accumulate chips later in MTT's lately - villain is somewhat tricky so I play a little WA/WB....standard or spew?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t1500/t3000
(Ante: t150)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t33249
UTG+1: t22162
MP1: t19684
MP2: t62675
MP3: t34281
CO: t35365
Hero: t58969
SB: t17285
BB: t45231

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
6 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t7500</font>, SB folds, BB calls t4500 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t13350)</font>.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t17850, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t17850, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t6000</font>, Hero calls t6000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t23850)</font>.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t29850, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets t15000</font>, Hero calls t15000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t44850)</font>.

Results:
Final pot: t59850

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

why are you 'slowplaying' your hand on the flop? You need to bet it. As it is, you're letting the villain taking the betting lead

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

[/ QUOTE ]

Planning on folding to a push?

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

[/ QUOTE ]

Planning on folding to a push?

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On a two-tone, probably not. Put him on a strong club draw. Slight disadvantage, but I'll felt second pair, get it right sometimes. Guess wrong, oh, [censored], walk, get a smoke, fire another up.

Generally won't do that against most opponents tho.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c-bet flop, oh, t12k.

[/ QUOTE ]

Planning on folding to a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a two-tone, probably not. Put him on a strong club draw. Slight disadvantage, but I'll felt second pair, get it right sometimes. Guess wrong, oh, [censored], walk, get a smoke, fire another up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do think this is better - I had a feeling he was calling preflop planning on making a move postflop since I had been quite active stealing blinds but I think I went a little chicken not wanting to call a push with second pair but not wanting to fold it either, thus my check behind. Stack sizes here are perfect for a bet/call line though.

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my real question about this line is why is it better to give the free card on the turn instead of the flop if I am planning to give one at some point in the hand anyways?

Re: Blind steal turns into marginal hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we worried about villain taking the betting lead here? Against tricky opponents I generally prefer that they have the lead because they tend to bluff off lots of chips when they perceive weakness. I was more worried about giving a free card to beat me if I had the best hand on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, so unless you have a read that villain is hyper-aggressive, giving a free card here is bad. I would think standard line check - bet 3/4-pot, check-check, bet-call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess my real question about this line is why is it better to give the free card on the turn instead of the flop if I am planning to give one at some point in the hand anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) We can take the pot right there

2) People pay for flush/str8 draws w/ 2 cards to come WAY more often than on the turn

3) If they pay for it on the flop and miss, we can charge them again on the turn if we're not pussies

4) There are a lot more scare cards than any club, any card higher than 8 (other than a Q) sucks too

5) Why are we planning on giving a free card at some point in the hand? I rarely plan on that...