How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

At the casino I play at, if the flop betting isn't complete, but the dealer burns and turns early, the exposed card gets shuffled back in, but before they shuffle, they burn and turn, and the card that previously would have been the river, now becomes the turn. Players bet the turn, and now the exposed card gets shuffled back, and a new river is brought out. Essentially what happened was, I was heads up, and the dealer wasn't paying attention. I bet the flop, my opponent checkraised, and I pushed all-in. Before my opponent had the chance to call, the dealer burned and turned. After the floor was called, and my opponent was informed that the exposed card wouldn't be the turn unless it came out by chance, he decided to call. If the dealer had been paying attention, and doing their job, I win an $1800 pot. Because of their negligence, a new card came up, and my opponent sucked out. Since we were able to see both the old turn and river, I know 100% that I would have won without the dealer mistake. Yes, mistakes happen, and yes, it's possible that this mistake could benefit me. But it didn't. I've never been on the other side of this situation. Dealers have absolutely no accountability. If the casino accidentally subtracted $1800 from a dealer's paycheck, and gave it to someone else, then told the dealer, 'sorry, mistakes happen, nothing we can do' I bet that dealer would be outraged and demand justice. Well, I'm not getting that pot, so I'm thinking about withholding tips until the withheld money is around $1800. I play around 30 hours per week, and probably win 2 pots an hour. That works out to 30 weeks of not tipping. Maybe 25 since sometimes I tip more than a dollar. As a professional poker player, EVERY mistake I make costs me money. Dealers should be held to the same standard. Perhaps I'm being childish, but I'm owed 1800 and this is the only way I could think of to legally get it back. Thoughts?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

rob the dealer in the parking lot for his 200 tips for 9 consecutive shifts

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Are you serious?

From an EV standpoint the dealer didn't cost you anything. When your opponent called your all-in he had no idea what either the turn and river were going to be (just that one specific card would not come on the turn but had the same chance of coming out on the river as every other card in the deck). Two random cards were put out on the turn and river and unfortunately you lost.

Would you still be making this thread if the original turn and river would have lost you the hand, but the newly-dealt river didn't?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

What are you going to do 29 weeks from now when a dealer makes a mistake that results in you winning an $1,800 pot you would have otherwise lost? Tip the whole thing back?

-McGee

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

I don't care about EV, I'm talking about dealer accountability. In this poker room, tips are pooled, so motivation for the dealers to do well is lacking. Should they not be punished in some way for their ineptitude?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm being childish

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i agree.

PS: This is the type of tip[ping thread which we wont allow. Your free to make your own decisions here, its not cool to ask B&m their opinion if you already decided not to tip.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
. As a professional poker player,

[/ QUOTE ]

As a pro, you know it cuts both ways. If the mistake had gone the other way, would you decide to tip off the $1800 by tipping double for 25 weeks?

As a pro, you should be paying attention to the dealer. Stop him before he burns and turns.

As a professional poker player, I guess the [Enter] key is foreign to you.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

This is childish, and are just trying to place blame for your loss. Yes the dealer made a mistake, but it made no difference at all in the situation, if you are a 'professional' as you claim. You'll be in that situation many times (not the mistakingly turned card) and have a chance at that expectation many times, and you should win it more than you should lose it...poker sounds like it isn't right for you.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care about EV, I'm talking about dealer accountability. In this poker room, tips are pooled, so motivation for the dealers to do well is lacking. Should they not be punished in some way for their ineptitude?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly how many jobs out there are there where nobody makes a mistake. or where if you make a mistake your pay is docked.

Doctor amputates your left leg instead of removing your third nipple and his insurance pays the settlement and he keeps on doing operating. When was the last time you heard of an airline pilot having to reimburse everyone for an airplane crash?

This dealer made a mistake, which was as likely to help you as it was to hurt you and you want him to be paying yopu back because you ended up losing the hand?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

/thread

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play around 30 hours per week, and probably win 2 pots an hour. That works out to 30 weeks of not tipping. Maybe 25 since sometimes I tip more than a dollar. As a professional poker player, EVERY mistake I make costs me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

You play this much and a very common mistake gets you upset? By chance do you have a second job and not keep actual records of if you win or lose?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Yeah. Sorry the dealer cost you exactly nothing. No more so than misdealing an pocket aces before any action. I play at MCC often and while the dealers are not all wonderful, they are better than G-town and at least as good as CW.

I can't imagine that an experienced player would confuse the Derler costing him a pot instead of pure chance.

Get over it.

Tip the dealers - it is good karma.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Twelve minutes

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

I have seen this happen many times, and it has both cost me pots and won me pots. It is certainly the fairest way for the error to be fixed. I understand it can help as easily as it can hurt. But it is still irritating when it occurs - win, lose or draw.

If it is a good dealer that just made a bonehead mistake, ok, it happens. If, however, it is a dealer that NEVER follows the simple procedure of tapping the felt a few times before burning and dealing a card and/or doesn't pay attention to the game or is careless, then it is unacceptable. This is the type of thing regular players learn to put up with, but it can cause a casual player to never return.

Jeff

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Dealer cost you 0$. And you are not a pro, really, you are a degenerate who think he has a clue.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm being childish

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i agree.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I was going to say.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

It doesn't really matter, but I want a clarification:

Did the card that was exposed cause the player to make a different decision losing you the pot, or was it a suck out card that would have made you win at showdown?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Stiffing the dealer makes about as much sense as lying awake at night contemplating the huge sums you’ve lost by not winning those hands that were re-dealt prior to the flop because of a misdeal. If your room allowed rabbit hunting, you’d be a basket case.

[ QUOTE ]
As a professional poker player, EVERY mistake I make costs me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

not so

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

This is not the player's fault, it isn't even the dealer's fault, it's the Casino's - and I for one am tired of it.
This all comes down to casino's being greedy bastards and not A.) paying dealers enough money to pay attention and B.) the casino's putting in unqualified and untrained dealers to save the money it costs of properly training a dealer.

In regards to not tipping for 36 weeks or whatever, that's just plain retarded. Why would you try and punish other dealer's for one dealer's mistake?

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Here's a story about how a dealer actually cost me $200:

I make a flush on a board of 2d3c5d4sTd. The pot is $100 I'm OTB and shove for $200. Guy across the table thinks for a while and finally says "call" but he moves his cards forward slightly (there was another player left to act). Within a second the dealer has his cards in the muck. The guy explains that he had a 6, he said call, blah, blah, blah. He is pissed and starts going off on the dealer. Not only did I tip him, but I showed my the other player my flush.

As a poker professional you should understand that things like this happen. If you can't stand dealer errors try playing online.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

I have a question: technically speaking, doesn't this procedure give his opponent a slight advantage? For example, suppose there is a 2 flush on board and the "fake" turn card completes it? He now knows that the odds of the flush completing on the turn are actually a little lower than usual because one of the flush cards is not eligible to come out on the turn. Or even worse, suppose his opponent holds an UI pocket pair, and the fake turn would have spiked him a set? Now he knows that card is not coming on the turn....

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question: technically speaking, doesn't this procedure give his opponent a slight advantage? For example, suppose there is a 2 flush on board and the "fake" turn card completes it? He now knows that the odds of the flush completing on the turn are actually a little lower than usual because one of the flush cards is not eligible to come out on the turn. Or even worse, suppose his opponent holds an UI pocket pair, and the fake turn would have spiked him a set? Now he knows that card is not coming on the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

but it is shuffled back in for the river.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps I'm being childish

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, i agree.

PS: This is the type of tip[ping thread which we wont allow. Your free to make your own decisions here, its not cool to ask B&m their opinion if you already decided not to tip.

[/ QUOTE ]

woops, I forgot to lock it before. Oh well, too late. thread lives!

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question: technically speaking, doesn't this procedure give his opponent a slight advantage? For example, suppose there is a 2 flush on board and the "fake" turn card completes it? He now knows that the odds of the flush completing on the turn are actually a little lower than usual because one of the flush cards is not eligible to come out on the turn. Or even worse, suppose his opponent holds an UI pocket pair, and the fake turn would have spiked him a set? Now he knows that card is not coming on the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

but it is shuffled back in for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


But it can ONLY come on the river. "1 out twice" is better then "1 out once".

The card room's procedure is what is retarded, if I read it correctly. There should be a chance for the mis dealt turn to be the same card, by dealing the would be river as the turn and THEN re-shuffling is beyond retarded. If you are going to enforce killing an exposed board card (also dumb) then you darn well better shuffle it back in before re-dealing the turn.

Wow, what an awful procedure.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Negligence action requires proof of:

1) existence of duty
2) breach of duty
3) causation
4) damages

1) Does the dealer have a duty to deal properly, yes.

2) Did he breach that duty? yes

3) Did his breach of duty cause you harm. This is not as clear cut based on the circumstances and you can certainly make the argument either way.

4)Was their damage? yea $1800.

... So think you should sue if feel so deprived.

I think you are being irrational because poker is a game of risks. Unlike other games you can make all the right moves and still lose, this is an example of that. The dealer gave you a bad beat of sorts.

Do you also not tip when a dealer burns and turns a card that lets your opponents draw get there? Cause its really the same thing.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doctor amputates your left leg instead of removing your third nipple and his insurance pays the settlement and he keeps on doing operating. When was the last time you heard of an airline pilot having to reimburse everyone for an airplane crash?


[/ QUOTE ]

Your analogy is flawed, in the case of the doctor it most certainly IS the doctor who is accountable and required to pay any compensation. The fact he has insurance and makes a claim to them to cover that compensation is irrelevant because if he had no insurance he would be paying out of his own pocket.

Exactly how many jobs out there are there where nobody makes a mistake. or where if you make a mistake your pay is docked.

Doctor amputates your left leg instead of removing your third nipple and his insurance pays the settlement and he keeps on doing operating. When was the last time you heard of an airline pilot having to reimburse everyone for an airplane crash?

This dealer made a mistake, which was as likely to help you as it was to hurt you and you want him to be paying yopu back because you ended up losing the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

whoever says they wouldn't be pissed off is lying

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question: technically speaking, doesn't this procedure give his opponent a slight advantage? For example, suppose there is a 2 flush on board and the "fake" turn card completes it? He now knows that the odds of the flush completing on the turn are actually a little lower than usual because one of the flush cards is not eligible to come out on the turn. Or even worse, suppose his opponent holds an UI pocket pair, and the fake turn would have spiked him a set? Now he knows that card is not coming on the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

but it is shuffled back in for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


But it can ONLY come on the river. "1 out twice" is better then "1 out once".

The card room's procedure is what is retarded, if I read it correctly. There should be a chance for the mis dealt turn to be the same card, by dealing the would be river as the turn and THEN re-shuffling is beyond retarded. If you are going to enforce killing an exposed board card (also dumb) then you darn well better shuffle it back in before re-dealing the turn.

Wow, what an awful procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this analysis is wrong. The all-in decision was made with three cards showing and two to come, just as would be the case had no error occurred. The original river card (the same actual physical card) has been moved to the turn - so obviously, no change there. The random turn card becomes a random river card. No change there, despite the fact that a random card was flashed.

I think your error is the fallacy that "it can only come on the river", so that somehow it's different. Not so, as the order doesn't matter. The reality is that there are two slots, and one is already filled - by the exact same physical card that would have filled a slot no matter what. And the other slot is filled by a random card. The order doesn't matter. That's the accurate analysis.

The procedure is 100% fair, and there really is no legitimate basis for complaint.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a professional poker player, EVERY mistake I make costs me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

not so

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Clearly OP doesn't know much about poker. I make mistakes and make money all the time (but I'm bad at poker). Every mistake costs you *theoretical* money, but since OP doesn't understand the concept of theoretical money (as evidenced by claiming the dealer cost him $1800) I don't think thats what he meant.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every mistake costs you *theoretical* money,

[/ QUOTE ]

Around here we call this Sklansky bucks and they're almost like real moneyzzz!

As to the OP, he's definately not a "pro", unless you mean a pro in the sense that Sammy "take it out on the dealer" Farha is a pro too, then yes, it makes sense.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question: technically speaking, doesn't this procedure give his opponent a slight advantage? For example, suppose there is a 2 flush on board and the "fake" turn card completes it? He now knows that the odds of the flush completing on the turn are actually a little lower than usual because one of the flush cards is not eligible to come out on the turn. Or even worse, suppose his opponent holds an UI pocket pair, and the fake turn would have spiked him a set? Now he knows that card is not coming on the turn....

[/ QUOTE ]

but it is shuffled back in for the river.

[/ QUOTE ]


But it can ONLY come on the river. "1 out twice" is better then "1 out once".

The card room's procedure is what is retarded, if I read it correctly. There should be a chance for the mis dealt turn to be the same card, by dealing the would be river as the turn and THEN re-shuffling is beyond retarded. If you are going to enforce killing an exposed board card (also dumb) then you darn well better shuffle it back in before re-dealing the turn.

Wow, what an awful procedure.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, this analysis is wrong. The all-in decision was made with three cards showing and two to come, just as would be the case had no error occurred. The original river card (the same actual physical card) has been moved to the turn - so obviously, no change there. The random turn card becomes a random river card. No change there, despite the fact that a random card was flashed.

I think your error is the fallacy that "it can only come on the river", so that somehow it's different. Not so, as the order doesn't matter. The reality is that there are two slots, and one is already filled - by the exact same physical card that would have filled a slot no matter what. And the other slot is filled by a random card. The order doesn't matter. That's the accurate analysis.

The procedure is 100% fair, and there really is no legitimate basis for complaint.

[/ QUOTE ]
This latest analysis is off or it is a level...

The Villain's advantage is that he knows that the odds of this card coming out in the rest of the hand are 50% of what they were if he had legitamitely made his decision to call before the dealer burned and turned.

As an example, if I was deciding whether to make a call on the flop to fill a gut shot and while I was making that decision the dealer prematurely turned over one of my 4 outs for that gutshot, it changes the pot odds I would need to make that call. I now have 3 outs on the turn and 4 on the river. Before the fiasco I would have thought I had 4 outs on the turn (4/47) and then 4 outs on the river (4/46) to hit or: 1 - (43/47 * 42/46) = 16.5%. But after the fiasco my turn chances have been reduced to 3 outs (3/46) so by the river my chances are 1 - (43/46 * 42/46) = 14.7%.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
As an example, if I was deciding whether to make a call on the flop to fill a gut shot and while I was making that decision the dealer prematurely turned over one of my 4 outs for that gutshot, it changes the pot odds I would need to make that call. I now have 3 outs on the turn and 4 on the river. Before the fiasco I would have thought I had 4 outs on the turn (4/47) and then 4 outs on the river (4/46) to hit or: 1 - (43/47 * 42/46) = 16.5%. But after the fiasco my turn chances have been reduced to 3 outs (3/46) so by the river my chances are 1 - (43/46 * 42/46) = 14.7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You chances of hitting on the river are better than you suggested because you have a 1 in 24 chance of hitting exactly the exposed card.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As an example, if I was deciding whether to make a call on the flop to fill a gut shot and while I was making that decision the dealer prematurely turned over one of my 4 outs for that gutshot, it changes the pot odds I would need to make that call. I now have 3 outs on the turn and 4 on the river. Before the fiasco I would have thought I had 4 outs on the turn (4/47) and then 4 outs on the river (4/46) to hit or: 1 - (43/47 * 42/46) = 16.5%. But after the fiasco my turn chances have been reduced to 3 outs (3/46) so by the river my chances are 1 - (43/46 * 42/46) = 14.7%.

[/ QUOTE ]

You chances of hitting on the river are better than you suggested because you have a 1 in 24 chance of hitting exactly the exposed card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see your point but I think you made a typo. Assuming one other opponent the chances of hitting that one card would be 1 in 42 instead of the 1 in 46 I had mistakenly assumed. This takes into account the 3 flop cards, 1 turn card, 2 opponent cards, 2 of my own cards, and the 2 prior burn cards.

So the chances on the river of hitting the 4 outs are (3/46 + 1/42) and the total chances of hitting the hand after the fiasco would be: 1 - ((43/46) * (1 - (3/46 + 1/42)) = 14.74%

Rounding to two places the difference was 14.65% vs. 14.74%.

This doesn't significantly change the point of my argument - which is that using this procedure the player yet to act has an advantage - which could be significant depending on what card originally came out on the turn.

That advantage is much greater than the slight change in odds the player yet to act would have if the seen card was shuffled back in for the turn (roughly 0.1% change for the turn and 0.1% for the river).

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Doctor amputates your left leg instead of removing your third nipple and his insurance pays the settlement and he keeps on doing operating. When was the last time you heard of an airline pilot having to reimburse everyone for an airplane crash?



Funniest [censored] ive ever heard!

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point but I think you made a typo. Assuming one other opponent the chances of hitting that one card would be 1 in 42 instead of the 1 in 46 I had mistakenly assumed. This takes into account the 3 flop cards, 1 turn card, 2 opponent cards, 2 of my own cards, and the 2 prior burn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

No typo. There are 25 cards in the reshuffled stub and the exposed card is one of them. Actually I did make a mistake it hits 1 in 25 or 4%.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a professional poker player, EVERY mistake I make costs me money.

[/ QUOTE ]

not so

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Clearly OP doesn't know much about poker. I make mistakes and make money all the time (but I'm bad at poker). Every mistake costs you *theoretical* money, but since OP doesn't understand the concept of theoretical money (as evidenced by claiming the dealer cost him $1800) I don't think thats what he meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Each mistake could *theoretically* cost him money.

Conversely, mistakes making money is what helps keep the games full.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see your point but I think you made a typo. Assuming one other opponent the chances of hitting that one card would be 1 in 42 instead of the 1 in 46 I had mistakenly assumed. This takes into account the 3 flop cards, 1 turn card, 2 opponent cards, 2 of my own cards, and the 2 prior burn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

No typo. There are 25 cards in the reshuffled stub and the exposed card is one of them. Actually I did make a mistake it hits 1 in 25 or 4%.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK I see my mistake. All of the dealt hands don't make it into the stub. I get to 26 cards left because even though there is another burn card on the turn, that card could be the exposed card and the player never gets to see it... The 26 cards left takes into account the 3 flop cards, 1 turn card, 18 opponent cards , 2 of my own cards, and the 2 prior burn cards.

The result would be 16.2% after fiasco vs. 16.5% before fiasco. Not a big deal...

However, if the exposed card were to be reshuffled into the stub before the turn, the chances of the gutshot coming out would now be 19.4% !!! (this is because that card would have a 1/27 chance of showing up on the turn...). So there would be an unfair advantage if a significant card was reshuffled for the turn.

Wow do I have egg on my face. Thanks for showing me the light, RR.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

I bet you haven't dealt a day in your life. Stop being a nit. STFU.

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I get to 26 cards left because even though there is another burn card on the turn, that card could be the exposed card and the player never gets to see it... The 26 cards left takes into account the 3 flop cards, 1 turn card, 18 opponent cards , 2 of my own cards, and the 2 prior burn cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are 25 cards in the stub. 20 were dealt out, 4 on the board and 3 burns. The third burn cannot be the exposed card because it hasn't been shuffled in yet. If it is a 10 handed table there are 25 cards in the reshuffle and 1 of them is the exposed card. If the premature card is the river instead of the turn the reshuffle really helps someone who needs that card. The worst case I have heard of was in a Omaha game where someone had a one outer but then the card was dealt prematurely so he called because it was promoted to a 4:1 shot (4 cards plus the exposed card in the reshuffled Omaha stub).

Re: How long do I withhold tips? Dealer mistake costs me $1800. (long)
 

Don't worry, you're still up $1200 Sklansky dollars! Just hope your landlord has read Theory of Poker.

Captain R, down more Sklansky dollars than he has real dollars.