Gin
 

Ok, this is a post out to anyone who has played any sort of semi-serious gin. I've been playing a lot with a guy from the live poker game I play in. We play $500-$1k per game (money flows). We play slightly different rules than standard, with 20 points for gin and 10 points for undercutting. I am currently stuck a reasonable amount playing this game, but I am guaranteed unlimited action if I want to play. I am a winning poker player, thus the lost money is no big deal but the potential for more makes me want to become the next Stu Ungar. His skill is of someone who has not really thought about the game but who has played the game for years and years with people who also aren't very good at it. I feel i'm a favourite in the game, but I'm concerned that after losing money i may not be, just wanting to work on my game before i keep playing.

Anyone know any good books / places to play constantly etc for Gin? Anyone want to chat about the game etc? Also if i start posting hands etc, will people who have any clue reply?

Re: Gin
 

Anyone who is interested in this game, post your interest, perhaps we can start posting hand examples, general strategy stuff, book stuff etc.

I've just gone over the archives and read past posts and it looks like there's a fair amount of interest in this game.

Re: Gin
 

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I feel i'm a favourite in the game, but I'm concerned that after losing money i may not be ...

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I can tell you that Stu never felt that.

Re: Gin
 

lol clearly Stu is a bit different.... Ok, i open up with a question on speccing, and when people think its right to spec. I would never spec unless it meant i came close to knocking in first draw or two and it just eliminated some dead wood for me.

Re: Gin
 

I enjoy just about all the major card games but have very little experience with gin. I've played online at yahoo a little bit, and I'm definetly interested in learning more about the game.

Re: Gin
 

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Ok, i open up with a question on speccing, and when people think its right to spec. I would never spec unless it meant i came close to knocking in first draw or two and it just eliminated some dead wood for me.

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I find speccing is usally a bad play unless you're playing against really savy opponents and want to confuse them. I never do it.

Re: Gin
 

Ok, here's some basic early game strategy, maybe it brings up some discussion:

Ok, so everyone knows that usually the best card to throw to start is either the same card as the one thats down (after the opponent declines), or the one +/- one rank apart from it, in a different suit. This is common gin strategy.

But I got to thinking why this is, which is also fairly obvious but has largescale reprecussions for the game:

Opponent's first throw is the Tc (ten of clubs):
You have the Ts and the Jd. Which is the safer throw?
Logically working through:
If opp throws the Tc he cannot have two tens (unless they are both straights).
That means the Ts will make 3 combinations for the opponent:
the 89Ts, the 9TJs, and the TJQs.
However, if you throw the Jd, it will make only 2 combinations:
The opponent cannot have two tens in his hand. He also cannot have the jack of clubs, since no one would throw the Tc if they had the Jc on their first throw. Furthermore he cannot have the Td because he would not split tens (or usually wouldn't. Might be played dependent). Therefore there are only two combinations he can have if he takes the Jd: The JQKd or the Jh Js Jd. Therefore you know the following: The Jc is still in the deck and he has those three exact jacks, or he has that exact straight.

Therefore the Jd is a safer throw. This is common knowledge to anyone who plays, but I hadn't really thought about why it was so.

This logical analysis of the gin hand can be done on the next few cards. Presumably if one is good enough at this logical process, one can use his 10 cards, plus the first couple discards to work out basically exactly what the opponent has.

I think that by the middle game presuming you are paying attention to all cards discarded and with the knowledge of your own hand, you can work out pretty much exactly what the opponent has, all the remaining cards and then work out the probabilities of hitting your cards, and the equity of going for gin vs knocking. This is obviously what the game is about, but approaching it in this manner seems to be useful...

I've also been thinking about some equity related stuff about when to knock as opposed to when to go for gin, with presumed perfect information on the opponents hand given outs to gin etc.

BTW I have not read any books on this topic, if anyone has and there's any good info, please post the info.

Re: Gin
 

That looks like good stuff. I'm also trying to learn more about gin... where did you pick up all that info?

I'm also interested if anyone else can recommend books or other resources....

- The Wolf

Re: Gin
 

I played / analysed my own play. And pulled out a sheet of paper and started scribbling. There is literally NOTHING online about gin strategy except for the random one page of strategy on all the sites that have online gin which are pretty useless. Don't even bother looking. That's why i brought this topic up.

If anyone else brings up anything interesting regarding the games, their own questions, or can look over ideas of my own, we can maybe have a discussion.

Re: Gin
 

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Opponent's first throw is the Tc (ten of clubs):
You have the Ts and the Jd. Which is the safer throw?
Logically working through:
If opp throws the Tc he cannot have two tens (unless they are both straights).
That means the Ts will make 3 combinations for the opponent:
the 89Ts, the 9TJs, and the TJQs.
However, if you throw the Jd, it will make only 2 combinations:
The opponent cannot have two tens in his hand. He also cannot have the jack of clubs, since no one would throw the Tc if they had the Jc on their first throw. Furthermore he cannot have the Td because he would not split tens (or usually wouldn't. Might be played dependent). Therefore there are only two combinations he can have if he takes the Jd: The JQKd or the Jh Js Jd. Therefore you know the following: The Jc is still in the deck and he has those three exact jacks, or he has that exact straight.

Therefore the Jd is a safer throw. This is common knowledge to anyone who plays, but I hadn't really thought about why it was so.


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You might want to reanalyze this and make a retraction.

Re: Gin
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Opponent's first throw is the Tc (ten of clubs):
You have the Ts and the Jd. Which is the safer throw?
Logically working through:
If opp throws the Tc he cannot have two tens (unless they are both straights).
That means the Ts will make 3 combinations for the opponent:
the 89Ts, the 9TJs, and the TJQs.
However, if you throw the Jd, it will make only 2 combinations:
The opponent cannot have two tens in his hand. He also cannot have the jack of clubs, since no one would throw the Tc if they had the Jc on their first throw. Furthermore he cannot have the Td because he would not split tens (or usually wouldn't. Might be played dependent). Therefore there are only two combinations he can have if he takes the Jd: The JQKd or the Jh Js Jd. Therefore you know the following: The Jc is still in the deck and he has those three exact jacks, or he has that exact straight.

Therefore the Jd is a safer throw. This is common knowledge to anyone who plays, but I hadn't really thought about why it was so.


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You might want to reanalyze this and make a retraction.

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Are you sure? Every strategy guide I've seen recommends the same... From this page:


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Early in the game it is advisable to discard a card ranking one or two away (better one away) and in a different suit to the one previously discarded by opponent. Example: opponent discards 9 of Clubs. It is best to discard one of {10 of Diamonds, 8 or 10 of Hearts, 8 or 10 of Spades, etc.}. If no such card is held, next best bet is to discard a card of rank equal to one discarded by opponent


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Re: Gin
 

Tc:
You have Ts and Jd. Opponent can only use the T for 3 straights.
Opponent can only use the Jd to make one exact combination of jacks (he can't have the Jc, so if he makes 3 jacks, it is exactly Jd Js Jh), and one straight, the JQKd, because he cannot have the Td logically (opponents don't throw straights OESD first throw). Clearly he could have a near lock hand, so he could be throwing coupled cards but its v. unlikely.

Also, Its even less likely he makes the J-Kd straight since he would prolly throw the Kd first rather than the off jack because most people think its the safer throw. Shrug. If my logic is wrong, please correct me jimbo, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

Now for some new stuff, I was playing / watching at a club yesterday for fairly small stakes, about a 100 a game (not donking off anymore money yet), and i was watching the opponent play who i played earlier for the higher stakes, when i noticed he often picks up cards simply to make triangles (eg 7d if he has 76c and 9d) or something. This maybe is why I had a bit of trouble playing against him in the first place, because I wasn't used to playing against someone who specced v. aggressively. Against this kind of play, which I think is kinda bad, should I just be playing a fundamental fast game where I aim to quickly knock and don't worry too much about giving my opponent the cards he needs because its too hard to get exact reads? Hmm..

Also Im interested in how often a great player beats a good player at this game, and so on. Apparently their is less luck than poker, which would mean a 70-80% win rate would be fairly achievable vs someone who had knowledge of the game and had played a lot, but wasn't amazing.

Re: Gin
 

Query: what does 'speccing' mean? It sounds like a strategy term, but I haven't heard it before here.

TIA,

The Wolf

Re: Gin
 

speccing = taking a card that doesn't make a meld.

EG of a bad spec: 3rd throw is Jd, you hold Jc Qc, and pick up the Jd to make the high triangle.
EG of a spec i'm not really sure about but is probably close: First card up is 2s, hero is to act and has the As and 2d in his hand, as well as an already meld (some people will say this is an automatic take. Others will say its close. Others will never spec).

Re: Gin
 

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You have Ts and Jd. Opponent can only use the T for 3 straights.
Opponent can only use the Jd to make one exact combination of jacks (he can't have the Jc, so if he makes 3 jacks, it is exactly Jd Js Jh), and one straight, the JQKd, because he cannot have the Td logically (opponents don't throw straights OESD first throw). Clearly he could have a near lock hand, so he could be throwing coupled cards but its v. unlikely.


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It appears that you are assuming your opponent is an average player. Against a superior player you are making a mistake discarding the diamond jack. Too complex to bother getting too in depth but I will say that this is a common way to both play safe and get information from your oponnent (for the player discarding the first ten with the club jack and the 8 9 T K Q of diamonds for instance).

Re: Gin
 

For starters, I am working on beating average players for greater quantities of money as opposed to beating professional players. However, I am also interested in becoming a better player so;

You believe that the correct throw is the Ts then, but if a player is 'fishing' using the Ts (Eg, looking for someone to throw him the 1 outer Jd), while also playing safe (and this play would be common even in fairly amateur games), to look for the Jd then surely he can also be throwing the Ts looking for the 89Ts or 9TJs or TJQs... And it works out that there's more combinations that use the Ts. Wouldn't he do this with your given hand if he had say, the 9Js instead of the KQd (which is a similar holding), throwing the Ts because as you said it is safe and gives info about the opponents hand? I can't see how your logic works...

Also, since you seem fairly knowledgable about the game Jimbo, I have a few questions: Have you read any book on gin that is worth reading? And have you got any tips for remembering the cards that have been laid already if you do that? (I have no problem remembering them roughly and remember all my opponents picks, but it'd be useful to just remember them all in order as they come out)

Re: Gin
 

I use mnemonic storyline memory hooks so I memorize each discard in the exact order in which it was discarded. As far as any books I have analyzed many different rules variations but cannot recommend any books that offer any rational theories or the practical application thereof.

As far as beating average players for more money than beating better players for less this is not like poker. If you are just marginally better in gin you will win a great deal more money because better players will play much higher than average players. After all you can only play gin so well no matter the stories about Stuey.

I used to play every weekend for .50 per point Holywood rules. Made much more than playing for 5 to 10 cents a pont against average players even though the players were much better.

Re: Gin
 

Ok, I am working on memorising the cards using a similar journey technique, just thought perhaps playing lots would substitute.

Wouldn't playing by point presumably change some strategy considerably? We play per game for money.

Re: Gin
 

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Ok, I am working on memorising the cards using a similar journey technique, just thought perhaps playing lots would substitute.

Wouldn't playing by point presumably change some strategy considerably? We play per game for money.

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Playing by point is your best bet when starting out. When playing flop, your opponents will be able to hide too much speed, and you'll have a harder time reading them and learning from them.

Memorising cards will help your discarding greatly. You'll be able to go back and review hands card by card and "reverse engineer" what the early discards should have been. There are lots of early discard strategies that don't key on you opponent's discard and it might be best to work on those.

Re: Gin
 

Playing flop? I presume this means per game. I have no choice but to play money per game. That is ok though, because i'm playing with people who are not amazing anyway, so I should be able to get an edge anyway.

I don't understand what you mean at the start of your post. Presumably it means that when you play per game people play a different style? But you use some terminology I am not familiar with.

Also I recently got the Oswald Jacoby book and there's some stuff in it I'd like to discuss..

Picking up deadwood when it makes you a 4 card meld of deadwood less than 10 points seems to be sound strategy according to jacoby, do pro's do this? EG Your hand is:

A23 9s98h KQsKh 7
Jacoby seems to suggest that if the up card is 4 or lower you should take it to create a sort of 4 card deadwood meld, which aids in very quick knocking (after you take this card you'll knock in 2 good picks.

If the hand seems more suited for 3 melds, of course you don't do this.

Re: Gin
 

OH also, care to elaborate on any of these early discard strategies that don't key on your opponents discard? I usually base my discards on what my opponent wants, and later in the game when I notice and absence of certain cards I'll assume they're wild and not throw them. But in general, I will throw highest pip count or unmatched cards (EG King on a 4) if I have no information from their discard.

Re: Gin
 

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care to elaborate on any of these early discard strategies that don't key on your opponents discard?

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OK

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But in general, I will throw highest pip count or unmatched cards (EG King on a 4) if I have no information from their discard.

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If he picks up the K and throws a J, he's probably cleared 30 points from his knock cache, while you have only cleared 10 minus your (if unmelded) draw.

Re: Gin
 

Yeah i've been thinking about this a lot lately, better to meld his set of 2s than his set of kings if you're unsure about which will meld for him. But on the flipside you want your own low cache . Thanks for the explanation tho.

Re: Gin
 

I don't like the reduction in undercutting, cutting should be a big threat IMO.

I played a few hundred games over the summer for around 5-50$ a game (standard) but cant find games at school, would enjoy reading some hands.

Re: Gin
 

I recently started playing gin with some friends for money and would be very interested in discussing proper gin strategy.
I have a quick question: Is it proper to be playing for gin when the knock is lower and to knock when its higher?

Re: Gin
 

Yea you can go for gin a bit more aggressively (like holding onto a high triangle for a bit longer in a knock on 3 game in oklahoma etc).

A question, all the literature i've been reading recommends speccing at the start if it makes you a 4 card deadwood meld (eg take a 3 if u have a A24).

Anyone do this? I've been trying it, seems ok. Obviously if you've got a good 3 meld combo you'd go for 3 melds instead.

Re: Gin
 

I know this is a dead thread, but I agree that there should be some kind of section or devoted forum for gin.

Re: Gin
 

i play a $5 game with someone. no deadwood allowed on the knock.

Re: Gin
 

I play very low stakes gin, mainly because I can only find two people who will play and they don't have much money. The stakes don't destract from how serious we take it though. I'm up for discussion if this thread keeps going.

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Ok,
Anyone know any good books / places to play constantly etc for Gin? Anyone want to chat about the game etc? Also if i start posting hands etc, will people who have any clue reply?

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I have read "Scarne on Cards", "How to Win at Gin Rummy" - Shankar, "How to Win at Gin Rummy" - Jacoby, "How to Win Popular Card Games" - Crawford and "Gin Rummy How to Play and Win" - Fry all of which I found very useful and would reccomend, however I would be interested to know if anyone disagrees with this or can point out any errors in them.

Less useful was "Gin Rummy How to Play and How to Win" - Fraed, although this wasn't as bad as "Play Gin to Win" - Killegrew and "Cohen's Complete Book of Gin Rummy". Again that's my opinion and I may be completey wrong in my view.

Re: Gin
 

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I use mnemonic storyline memory hooks so I memorize each discard in the exact order in which it was discarded.

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WOuld some one like to expend on this and give examples of how it works...it would probably help my stud, razz and bridge game as well

Re: Gin
 

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I use mnemonic storyline memory hooks so I memorize each discard in the exact order in which it was discarded.

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WOuld some one like to expend on this and give examples of how it works...it would probably help my stud, razz and bridge game as well

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This site has a bunch of useful techniques

Re: Gin
 

Good link Wolf. FWIW I primarily use the Journey method in Gin. In 1971 a friend of mine in the Army told me to write down 25 different words and then read them to him slowly. Then he told me to either say the word and he would tell me what number it was in my list or vice versa. This little parlor "trick" convinced me to give serious study to memory techinques. I can do a list of 100 with no problem so counting a single deck is automatic.

Jimbo

Re: Gin
 

Thanks Wolf, I knew the basic method but never been able to find anything giving examples of exactly how to do it. Off to study now this now so I can use it in my next game.

Re: Gin
 

I find Cohen's "complete guide to gin rummy" much more informative than sam fry's "play gin to win". Cohen includes more examples for a wider variety of games and has much more detailed information. This is largely because his book is about 300 pages longer.

Re: Gin
 

I didn't think Cohen's book was particularly well written or laid out so maybe I'm being a bit unfair on the content. He also concentrates on oklahoma gin with hollywood scoring and extra boxes for gin, undercuts etc. I play knock on ten or less, 20 for gin, 10 for an undercut, no extra bonuses. I'll give it another look if you recommend it

Re: Gin
 

YOu are right about the layout of Cohen's book. I reccomend highlighting it and then simplifying parts you deem helpful into point form tips.

As far as content being more geared toward Oklahoma and other variants, I think it is important to master these types as well. My preferred game is the same as yours (I think it is officially called the American System). However, gin is a game where its players choose a very wide selection of variants, moreso than poker nowadays, where everyone can sit down and play texas hold em and such. FOr this reason, I think it is key to expand your breadth and you'll find that tricks you develop in games like Oklahoma can be transferred to certain situations in American System and so on.

Do you have any other books to reccomend? Useful websites that go beyond the obvious would be good too.

Re: Gin
 

Thanks Nixon

I will try your approach with the Cohen book. It's the way I approach poker and backgammon books but have never really done it with gin books, probably because I don't play gin as often.

The problem with living in the UK is there aren't many gin rummy players so most of the people I play with just play the American System. I have suggested trying Oklahoma, Hollywood etc but to no avail.

A lot of the books cover the same ground but I liked the Jacoby book and some parts of the Shankar book. The Shankar book suggests learning to figure what cards your opponent has by using a chart to help visulise what he has/what is missing. I can't see pulling out a piece of paper and filling it in while playing a cash game being looked upon too kindly!! I would avoid the Killegrew book, i found it badly written and some of the advice laughable (visulising the card you need apparently makes it more likely to appear apparently!!)

Does you (or does anyone) play online for money? The Shankar method would work great there but I feel the fact you can do this (or even just write down the discards) would make the game more of a card catching contest.

Re: Gin
 

Good post edenfield. I haven't read the Jacoby book, but have tried the approach of writing down discards on a chart while playing against a friend before.The conclusion that we both came to is that we played a much more defensive game as a result. As for reading the other person's hand, I can usually figure out 8-9 of my opponents cards, but not the entire hand. I feel like figuring out the tenth would improve my game greatly-- any tips on how to do that?
As for playing gin online for money, I've been looking for a user friendly reputable site. I prefer playing live though, as I feel it is much easier to get a read on the rhythm of the game and some gin tells live than online (much like poker, and it sounds like we come from the same background). If you find a good $$$ gin site though, feel free to post it. And lastly, from everything I've heard, Charlie Killibrew is an egotistical moron.

Re: Gin
 

What is everyones view on your opponent laying off when you've gone gin?? Different rules vary on this, the main two arguements are
For: Your opponent has been trying to stop you going gin, probably by holding cards you needed, why punish him further by not allowing him to lay off.
Against: What is the incentive to go gin if your opponent can play off the cards you have trapped him with

Re: Gin
 

I do not agree with laying off cards on gin. While I do think it is important to reward defensive play, there should be a risk in it too. This might force the defensive player to be more creative, using the block cards for alternate melds (while sometimes even sacrificing melds of their own) so that they can undercut if the offensive player gives up on gin and knocks.
In the American system that you play, Edenfield, defensive play is underrated in the bonuses that are given. So I see more merit in throwing off on gin there, even though i still disagree.