Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Each is in their 3rd year. Both follow guys who left the cupboard bare [1]. Both had great recruiting classes. But, the programs look like they are going in opposite directions.

What does all this mean?

1. Charlie seems to be pretty poor at developing the young guys. This is way different than the NFL

2. With kids you need a standard package. Trying to scheme each week won't work in college. I see ND play and they have like zero identity.

3. The Zooker isn't just a great recruiter (best in the country), he can develop his kids.

4. Maybe, just maybe, he's not as bad a coach as people think.

I am thoroughly enjoying watching my lowly Illini look like a program on the rise while ND is a program going through a demise. Yeah, ND will be back, but Charlie sure seems like he's got some work to do before he really becomes what people hoped he'd be.



[1] Yeah, ND had enough talent to go bowling during Charlie's first few years, but he didn't get hired because people were happy with the talent level in the program.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[1] Yeah, ND had enough talent to go bowling during Charlie's first few years, but he didn't get hired because people were happy with the talent level in the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie's only two full recruiting classes have been outstanding. Talk to me in 2 years. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[1] Yeah, ND had enough talent to go bowling during Charlie's first few years, but he didn't get hired because people were happy with the talent level in the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie's only two full recruiting classes have been outstanding. Talk to me in 2 years. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

So have Zook's. Which are doing better?

Zook better recruiter, and better developer of those recruits.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

the new orleans saints miss Zook.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[1] Yeah, ND had enough talent to go bowling during Charlie's first few years, but he didn't get hired because people were happy with the talent level in the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie's only two full recruiting classes have been outstanding. Talk to me in 2 years. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

So have Zook's. Which are doing better?

Zook better recruiter, and better developer of those recruits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Fat Charlie's recruiting classes have been good on paper, but it's translated into literally zero success on the football field this year.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

When he was w/ NE, I was in awe of Charlie's play-calling. I'd never seen anyone better, which was hard to see through my blind hatred of NE. Plus, he's a Jersey guy.

After watching ND for the last few years combined with the recent developments in NE, I don't know what to think about Charlie.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[1] Yeah, ND had enough talent to go bowling during Charlie's first few years, but he didn't get hired because people were happy with the talent level in the program.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie's only two full recruiting classes have been outstanding. Talk to me in 2 years. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wait? We can see those "outstanding" recruits NOW!

http://majorlyenglish.files.wordpres...05/clausen.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/2...ll_inmc103.jpg

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids...4136476611.jpg

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything? I think it's only fair to compare both coach's full body of work, at which point your the title of your post becomes much more dubious. Here's some excellent analysis comparing this year's Irish to the Miami program of the late 90's following the "death penalty" of scholarship limitations for various program infractions here

All you need to know about Zook you can learn from his tenure at Florida. His teams were consistently mediocre despite bringing in National Championship caliber talent each year. On the plus side, it appears that Benn was worth every penny.

The 2nd half of the Purdue game portends good things for the Irish future. We're still almost certainly looking at an 0-8 start, but great talent of the FR class is beginning to creep through (Clausen, Tate, Parris, Allen). The dark days are almost behind us.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://majorlyenglish.files.wordpres...05/clausen.jpg


[/ QUOTE ]

http://user10337.websitewizard.com/i...idos_small.jpg

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

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So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you only get invited to them because you'll bring lots of fan and TV ratings, then yes they don't mean anything.

The talent of your team is not measured by how much Brent Musburger & ESPN sucks your [censored].

Get a [censored] clue delusional ND homer.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that have been with... *gasp* Ty's recruits???

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
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http://majorlyenglish.files.wordpres...05/clausen.jpg


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http://user10337.websitewizard.com/i...idos_small.jpg

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Wow, I really hate Clausen now

DIAGF you clown

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that have been with... *gasp* Ty's recruits???

[/ QUOTE ]

Recruits that Ty couldn't coach...you bet.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

BigDaddy- It's not Ron Zook's fault he didn't have a Tyrone Willingham-caliber coach to stock the cupboard for him.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://majorlyenglish.files.wordpres...05/clausen.jpg

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Cut this bizarro-looking Guido some slack - he's already losing his hair before age twenty!!! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you only get invited to them because you'll bring lots of fan and TV ratings, then yes they don't mean anything.

The talent of your team is not measured by how much Brent Musburger & ESPN sucks your [censored].

Get a [censored] clue delusional ND homer.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL anger issues.

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

I'm the first to admit CW made some serious miscalculations about his team's capabilities before the season began and in choosing his priorities of work (i.e. scheme vs. fundamentals). But to deny that ND having the fewest # of returning lettermen in D1 having hurt the program is insane. I'm really looking forward to next year when the "Ty factor" is mostly out of the equation and we can properly evaluate CW almost exclusively on his coaching acumen.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

One thing that gets lost in the whole Ty V. Charlie debate, Notre Dame fired Willingham before they had a replacement lined up. They tried desperately to get Urban Meyer but he chose Florida. Willingham was the plan B.

Now obviously, at the time Willingham was fired, it would be a no brainer decision to bring in Weiss assuming ND had a deal with Weiss already in place. But that fact that ND left Willingham high and dry with no known replacement is a serious slap in the face.

OK back on topic, Zook rules because Clarky says Zook rules. Obviously.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

"I'm the first to admit CW made some serious miscalculations about his team's capabilities before the season began and in choosing his priorities of work (i.e. scheme vs. fundamentals). "

I really do love this weaselly admission of fault. Weis' biggest mistake is not realizing just how terrible Ty's guys were.

Also, why did you include Claussen in the list of FR talent that is finally creeping through(creeping through the fog of Ty's guys, obv)? Is Claussen even the starter? Didn't Sharpley lead the offense to more points in one half than Claussen had coaxed out of them all year?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

I like how the media is STILL covering the quarterback controversy at Notre Dame. Really? And why should we care about a QB controversy at on 0-5 team again? Gee let's talk about Colorado State's QB controversy.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

[/ QUOTE ]

So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

though he drives me crazy, Zook does seem more adept at the college game than Weis

what's overlooked about Zook is the great job he did in developing mediocre talent on the defensive side of the ball

the improvement from the 2005 Illini defense to the 2006 Illini defense blew me away....the only recruit that helped was Vontae Davis (who [censored] rocks!)

still, one CB is not the difference between
2005 39.5 ppg 23 first downs 5.5 ypc 67% passing for opponents
2006 26.8 ppg 17 first downs 3.3 ypc 55.5% passing for opponents

the Zooker coached the defense up HUGE
I have yet to see Weis do anything with his defense

I'm not willing to say Zook is better yet
He still boggles my mind sometimes
I think he was pretty lucky this week even with bringing in McGee when he did and kicking that 47 yd FG into the wind on 4th and 2
However, he made great adjustments to the defense after Morelli absolutely torched the Illini D for 40 minutes

Oh yeah.....haha at all the ND hate for Benn choosing Illinois saying he'd never be a winner and never get the spotlight. Benn seems like a pretty smart guy right about now. Glad he's finally healthy enough to return kicks!

BTW---Illinois had a boatload of recruits at the game....they sat in the lower east corner of the north endzone

they were waiting at field level when the game ended and got to see the players run up to the bleachers and greet the band and students along with a couple players play instruments with the band--- that's a recruiting visit!!!!

FYI....you know how Zook filled in the O-line?..He converted one DE (Fulton) and got a transfer (Millington) ...that's how you add upperclassmen to the trenches

I think Zook gets the college game alot more than Weis at this point. Weis seems to make better on field decisions, but there is more to the college game than that.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Clarknasty,
Hopefully you get to enjoy watching the Badgers go down with some beverages, gumbo, and crawdads!!!!!!!!!!

Enjoy this week man...I'm jealous

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Has Zook been taught how to say Illinois yet?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

[/ QUOTE ]

So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

D

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

D

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting observation...could you provide some insight to the state of the program when SS left (i.e. previous records, incoming recruits, etc)

Also, what was the consensus view of Zook from Florida fans while he was there?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

D

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting observation...could you provide some insight to the state of the program when SS left (i.e. previous records, incoming recruits, etc)

Also, what was the consensus view of Zook from Florida fans while he was there?

[/ QUOTE ]

BigDaddy,

Not an alum, but a lifelong fan. Spurrier was pretty much worshipped in Florida. Dont remember the exact numbers, but he won a NC during his tenure and numerous SEC championships. As for Zook, UF fans pretty much hated him. Good recruiter, not so good as a head coach. But that poster was correct, anyone following Spurrier was not set up for success because the bar was set so high during his time at Florida.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

[/ QUOTE ]

So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to share any of the highly dubious arguments on Tyrone Willingham's firing being on account of race and I'll be happy to dismantle each one by one.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what was the consensus view of Zook from Florida fans while he was there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a fan, but if memory stands correctly fireronzook.com was up before his first practice with the team.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

D

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting observation...could you provide some insight to the state of the program when SS left (i.e. previous records, incoming recruits, etc)

Also, what was the consensus view of Zook from Florida fans while he was there?

[/ QUOTE ]

BigDaddy,

Not an alum, but a lifelong fan. Spurrier was pretty much worshipped in Florida. Dont remember the exact numbers, but he won a NC during his tenure and numerous SEC championships. As for Zook, UF fans pretty much hated him. Good recruiter, not so good as a head coach. But that poster was correct, anyone following Spurrier was not set up for success because the bar was set so high during his time at Florida.

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris,

To RZ's credit, he set up Urban Meyer with player talent that could rival anyone in the nation. It's the reason when Meyer was comparing the ND/UF jobs, his dad famously advised that "he could win sooner in Flordia" With a national championship in his 2nd year, the results obviously speak for themselves. Though I think Weis is the better long term hire for ND (he's an ND guy and isn't going anywhere whereas UM may have used the job as a stepping stone) it's impossible not to wonder how UM would be doing at this stage of the game at ND.

BTW Navy has to be psyched that this could be the year Notre Dame's 38 (?) game win streak may end...given this season's debacle and my service academy affiliation I may end up cheering for you guys.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Zook also got into that fight at a frat house...

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
Zook also got into that fight at a frat house...

[/ QUOTE ]
yeah but who doesnt get into fights at frat houses?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

[/ QUOTE ]

So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to share any of the highly dubious arguments on Tyrone Willingham's firing being on account of race and I'll be happy to dismantle each one by one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget why he got fired. I'm curious if you think race had anything to do with him getting hired. I seem to remember Bob Davie complaining about admissions being a barrier to getting "the black athlete" at ND. Did Ty's race help him get hired?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nothing delusional about ND's record improving from 5-7 and 6-6 (Willingham) to 9-3 and 10-3 (Weis).

[/ QUOTE ]

So Weiss gets a pass because his recruits are still young. Yet it's Willingham's fault they went 5-7 then 6-6 with the same aged recruits?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that Ty's recruiting classes were ranked low. See, if Ty would have had higher recruiting classes he could have started out 0-8 in his first three years too and the Domers would have been patient, because if there's one thing we know it is that race had (absolutely) nothing to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to share any of the highly dubious arguments on Tyrone Willingham's firing being on account of race and I'll be happy to dismantle each one by one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forget why he got fired. I'm curious if you think race had anything to do with him getting hired. I seem to remember Bob Davie complaining about admissions being a barrier to getting "the black athlete" at ND. Did Ty's race help him get hired?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, I think it did. Since ND was reeling PR wise from the George O'Leary padded resume scandal, I think the Administration folks saw hiring a minority coach as a partial antidote to the bad publicity (while failing to consider potential negative publicity of someday having to replace this guy).

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
To RZ's credit, he set up Urban Meyer with player talent that could rival anyone in the nation. It's the reason when Meyer was comparing the ND/UF jobs, his dad famously advised that "he could win sooner in Flordia" With a national championship in his 2nd year, the results obviously speak for themselves. Though I think Weis is the better long term hire for ND (he's an ND guy and isn't going anywhere whereas UM may have used the job as a stepping stone) it's impossible not to wonder how UM would be doing at this stage of the game at ND.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah no one that knows anything about college football is going to deny that Zook left the cupboard full of talent for Meyer. But his head coaching left something to be desired. As for how UM may have done at ND, I dont follow ND football close enough to know. But he does have some serious coaching chops, look at what he did before he came to Florida.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW Navy has to be psyched that this could be the year Notre Dame's 38 (?) game win streak may end...given this season's debacle and my service academy affiliation I may end up cheering for you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm cautiously optimistic..certainly if there were ever a year to do it, it might this year. Of course the pessimist in me says that ND might just use Navy as an outlet for their frustrations this year, it might be more likely to beat them in a good year when their guard is down. But based on what I've seen of ND this season (which isnt much) Army has a chance. And FWIW, I always root for the other service academies when they arent playing Navy. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So back to back BCS bowls don't mean anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't that have been with... *gasp* Ty's recruits???

[/ QUOTE ]

Recruits that Ty couldn't coach...you bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So assuming Weis could coach Ty's recruits better... now he has fewer of Ty's recruits, and more of his own. What's the problem?

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Could be Weis has such severe halitosis that no one wants to get close. Probably why he wears the mike & headphones...

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

[ QUOTE ]
As a Florida alum, I will say this. Whoever followed Spurrier @ UF was set-up to fail. Zook had no chance from day 1.

D

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably very similar to Earle Bruce at Ohio State. He had some decent years, but was never liked in Columbus.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

BDY, Thanks for the answer. I think I'm getting the picture.

1. Notre Dame hired a minority for good publicity, hoping it would help recruit blacks, and generally because affirmative action is part of the white man's burden.

2. Those people who hired him told us that they hired the best man available, and that race had nothing to do with the supremely qualified person-- but many ND fans knew differently, and crossed their fingers and held their breath.

3. Turned out the coach was lazy and stupid (in addition to being unqualified) and after he went 10-3, he was still on probation. The next two years saw mediocrity descend on Irish football, and given that the guy at the helm was stupid and lazy, there wasn't much point in giving him any slack because someone else's kids were in the upper classes.

4. Now, the people who hired him because he was black (but told us they did not), fired him entirely because he underperformed in a job he was not qualified to have. A tragedy of affirmative action, and at the same time, perhaps ironically, race had nothing to do with it, not the culture he was working in, not the guarded reception he was given, the harsh judgment of stupid and lazy, or the skepticism with which his success was viewed-- race had absolutely nothing to do with it.

I'm willing to believe that ND is just tough on coaches, and they have reason to expect better performance than they've gotten-- but I think you might see how someone could get the wrong idea.

Re: Ron Zook >>>> Charlie Weis
 

Wasn't TW hired after the George O'Leary [censored] up? Then after that everybody patted themselves on the back for hiring such a high character guy? (this mostly because Ty won't ever raise his voice and has the personality of a dead goat).