\"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

The latest post over at www.pokerati.com tells the story of Jerry Yang (with advice from Chris Ferguson) allegedly not tipping the dealers after his win earlier this morning.

An excerpt:

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At that point Ferguson pointed out what that came out to — $148,500 by my calculations, but not certain that’s the number he cited — and said, according to a mostly reliable source who was in the payouts room, “So I recommend zero.”

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Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Raymer has talked about this. You should not tip a percentage of a big win, you should come up with a reasonable per hour tip rate for the dealers. Ferguson has apparently done the math and determined that $148,500 works out well, so why leave any more?

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Lam went around giving extra tokes. He is also a former dealer.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

^^ well said ^^

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

I'm guessing that there were about 10,000 dealer hours at the Main Event. 1.8% was taken from a $60M prize pool, which works out to $960,000. 30% went to management, leaving $612,000 for dealers. So dealers got tipped around $60 per hour?

That can't be right. What's wrong with my math?

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Probably undershot the dealer hours a bit. There was around 10k dealer hours for Day 1 alone I'd think.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

that article said they were guaranteed $25 per down. Without any extra tips that is still good money. 12-14 downs a day seems like a fair estimate. 14*25= $350/day.

Um, they make plenty.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

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Just guessing. I used an average of 100 tables per Day 1 (assuming they started at 150 and ended at 50), and 14 hours per day. 100 x 14 x 4 days = 5600 hours. If that's correct it's pretty hard to even get to 10,000 hours when you are already down to 1600 players by the day 2s. I think I must be off by a factor of two or three somewhere...

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]


well said.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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^^ well said ^^

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Amen.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Compare:
1. They already took out
2. I assume they do not tell you the number of dealer hours so you can figure out roughly what an additional tip translates into.
3. I know they won't tell you how much the dealer's are making before an additional tip.

with

1. They don't take out from my ring game.
2. I know how much my translates into and to whom it is going when I tip in a ring game.
3. I know roughly how much the dealer in a ring game makes.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All players paid 1.8% out of their entry fee to pay the dealers with. Not sure how many who made the money tipped on top of that. But I'll bet that the TD and other staff pressured every single one of them:) So yes, the real number should be closer to $1M I'd guess (depending on how much mgmt raked for their own pockets).

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing that there were about 10,000 dealer hours at the Main Event. 1.8% was taken from a $60M prize pool, which works out to $960,000. 30% went to management, leaving $612,000 for dealers. So dealers got tipped around $60 per hour?

That can't be right. What's wrong with my math?

[/ QUOTE ]

the prize pool is actually ~62M [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

The 1.8% is deducted from the GROSS prize pool, which is the full $10,000 per player X 6,358 players.

1.8% for dealer and staff = $1,144,440

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough. I played in a MGM tourney where the dealers got $5 out of each $45 entry fee, and one dealer complained that it hardly added up to anything. When I pointed out that it was more than one of the higher placing prizes, the dealer had nothing to say to that.

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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Good thing I don't play tournaments. I would figure out roughly how many hands I played and tip that many dollars total. I would not tip random people $200,000 just because I became a millionaire. I would much rather buy a family member a house or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.
...

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe dealers at the WSOP get that great a deal. I think my math must be wrong. Management skims off 30% of their 1.8%, and doesn't treat them very well. And remember, this is a tough, part-time gig that dealers used to travel in for (do they still?). And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
probably the dealer hours, how did you get that number?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just guessing. I used an average of 100 tables per Day 1 (assuming they started at 150 and ended at 50), and 14 hours per day. 100 x 14 x 4 days = 5600 hours. If that's correct it's pretty hard to even get to 10,000 hours when you are already down to 1600 players by the day 2s. I think I must be off by a factor of two or three somewhere...

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I think you are very close indeed, and certainly not off anywhere near a factor of 2. Let's figure:

Day 1: 1600 players/day = 178 tables * 12 hours of play * 4 days = 8544 dealer-hours. However, this is clearly too high as there were not 1600 players for all hours. By the end of the day, there were less than 60 tables. Let's conservatively say 7200 dealer-hours.

Day 2. ~1150 players/day = 128 tables * 10 hours * 2 days = 2560 dealer-hours. End of day was about 410 players each day (46 tables), let's say 2000 dealer-hours.

Day 3. 820 players = 92 tables * 12 = 1104 dealer-hours. End of day was 337 players (38 tables), let's use 800 dealer-hours.

Day 4. 337 players = 38 tables * 11 = 418 dealer-hours. End of day was 112 players (13 tables), so say 300 dealer-hours. We're pretty much in the noise at this point.

Day 5. 13 tables * 12 hours = 156 dealer-hours. Only 5 tables at the end of the day, let's use 120 dealer-hours.

Day 6. 4 tables * 18 hours = 72 dealer-hours, we'll use 50.

Day 7. 1 table * 20 hours.

Total ~ 10,500 dealer-hours. Even if all tables ran all day it would only raise the total to around 13,000 dealer-hours.

At 10k hours, and assuming that Ferguson's $150k is correct, Yang effectively tipped each and every dealer about $15/hour for every hour they worked. That's more than generous and in his shoes I doubt that I'd tip anything more.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

"Jesus" advises Yang to stiff dealers?

haha, love the title of this post.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Someone change the title of this thread. Or, lock it.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

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insert joke about dealer tokes

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But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

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When they cash you out, they ask, "would you like to leave anything extra for the dealers?" For my part, I said "no" but distributed about 1% of my win to a few different floor people and staff who I thought were undertaking the uphill task of actually working hard to make the tournaments better.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

[/ QUOTE ]

That sure didn't stop anyone from doing this.

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky
 

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

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I never tip for MTT cashes. They take out far too much as it is

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It depends on which State you are in.

In New Jersey they can't take anything out, so it is on you to "tip out" when you cash.

Vegas is different, where I believe they do take out a percentage for the dealers & floor.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Twenty years ago when I worked as a waiter, we would add whatever % on for parties of 8 or more. I would never fail to point this out to the customer when giving them the check. Failing to do so, hoping for double tipping, is tantamount to stealing as far as I'm concerned.

When I cashed out, the clerk's exact words were "would you like to leave something for the staff?" No mention was made of the fact that the staff had already added several thousand to my bill...

JG

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.
...

If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe dealers at the WSOP get that great a deal. I think my math must be wrong. Management skims off 30% of their 1.8%, and doesn't treat them very well. And remember, this is a tough, part-time gig that dealers used to travel in for (do they still?). And if I remember rightly from last year, they aren't even allowed to smoke pot in the parking lot!

But I agree it's pretty scummy if these guys were getting $60 an hour and management tried hustle even more tips out of cashing players without telling them this.

I wish someone who actually played the events and knows the real story would chime in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if the dealer pay structure is much different for the WPT than the WSOP, but a guy that's dealt WPT told me they make some nice coin. Somewhat better than dealing cash games for the same time period.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

I think dealers should get a reasonable tip. 2% seems pretty fair.

One thing I can't stand (particularly at places staffed by teenagers/college kids) is these fast food places where the kid takes your order and gives your food to you on a tray, yet they have a tip jar. It's like $9 for a sandwich isn't enough, you expect another dollar or two to help pay your staff. Considering the margins at Starbucks, this tip jar thingy is unseemly. /rant

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Every year it seems like there's drama about what someone tipped or didn't tip.

Ferguson simply pointed out that he already had $150,000 taken out of his prize for the dealers. That seems like important information. When they ask you if you want to leave a tip, I don't think they say, "You've already tipped $150,000, would you like to leave anything more than that?"

If someone told me that the guy won $8 million and left a $150,000 tip for the dealers, I would think that sounded like a nice tip. I'm certainly not going to think less of the guy because the tip was automatically deducted.

If I go to a restaurant and they automatically add an 18% tip onto the check, and that's all we leave, I think it would be pretty lame to claim we "stiffed" the waitress. Yet that's the title of this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

pretty good post, and I agree

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

Hello all. Im stopping by here first to clear a few things up then i will be posting on pokerati. I am the dealer that put out the last hand. I was in the payout room with Jerry as a representative for the dealers. I do not know if chris was invited or not but that is beside the point. First I want to say that Jerry is a wonderfull, big hearted man that played a great tourney for somebody that has only been playing for 2 years. HE DID NOT STIFF US! He was misled and didnt know any better. A stiff is someone who knows all the facts and refuses to toke and wont even say thank you. Next, we do not get paid by the hour this year, we get paid by downs (each table we deal), we do get an hourly $6.41 from harrahs. As for the main this year, 1.8% was withheld for the staff, which i might add is the smallest we have been given in years. It is split 30% to the Floor staff and its supposed to be 70% for the dealers but i have heard that a chunk of that is going to the chip runners and cashiers....dont quote me on that cuz i dont know for a fact. Now We started the main this year with over 700 dealers and that was too many in my opinion because they were getting very little downs per day and having forced days off. We are NOT garunteed $25 a down, Dan misunderstood me when I was explaining to him what we have been averageing this year. Now I am not good at math without chips and cards infront of me but everything that goes into the toke pool must be shared between all dealers for that 11 days and going by CF's number that he stated in the payout room to Jerry means that we should only recieve $214 for 11 days of work? Hmmm that doesnt sound to good to me.
As for what happened last night, Jerry trusted CF to give him very sound advice because he has never won anything like this before. The issue I have is when the payout clerk asked Jerry if he would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL (yes that is how it was stated) for the dealers, Jerry looked to chris and asked What he should do. CF Told him that the dealers already get 2%, he was then corrected by someone in the room with us that its 1.8%, so CF goes on to say that "It works out to be around 170K that you have already tipped them so no, I would not leave anything more." It Was very wrong of CF to state it in that manner because he was flat out misleading. I stood there smiling, waited for Jerry to finish signing his paperwork then hugged and congratulated him once more, very sincerly. Of course i was pissed, not that Jerry declined to tip but that CF was giving him great advice on everything else but was completely wrong when it came to the dealers. I couldn't say anything because that would be considered soliciting. I just wish that he would have been properly informed and if then he declined, I am perfectly fine with that. Yes we make good money for what we do and unfortunately there are some greedy ones in the bunch. Alot of you out there calling me greedy need to understand that because i choose to work the circuit for harrahs and travel with them, I have to pay all my own expenses, my own health care and we only work about 2 weeks every month. We depend on the WSOP to make up for the rest of the year to keep us all fed till January. This 45 days of hard work is atleast 2/3 of most of our incomes. Now I believe that harrahs with the huge vig every event should be the ones responsible for giving us a bigger chunk and I think that tipping is a very personal thing that should be left to every individual to decide on and not bitter players who wish to bash us "greedy sons of...". I for one dont expect anything that i have not earned but I always appreciate a thank you for a job well done and that doesnt have to be in the form of cash and last night it was in the form of a huge hug. I love my job even with the ups and downs and honestly, This years WSOP was a great time for me. So hopefully this rambling clears up a few things and starts alot more discussions on how things can be done even better next year for all involved.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
more players than just the winner should be tipping and adding to this total right?

[/ QUOTE ]

All players paid 1.8% out of their entry fee to pay the dealers with. Not sure how many who made the money tipped on top of that. But I'll bet that the TD and other staff pressured every single one of them:) So yes, the real number should be closer to $1M I'd guess (depending on how much mgmt raked for their own pockets).

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The winners are NEVER pressured to tip. It is a printed "Gratuity" line on the form and they are asked if they would like to leave anything ADDITIONAL. And yet again the dealers only get 70% of that 1.8. Also I may not be BFF with JE but the Floor staff makes enough without having to take from us and they dont "line" their pockets with players money

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

I don't see how CF misled him.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, pig ignorant dealers will continue to whine and complain that they don't get enough.


If they don't disclose that the dealers receive a suitably large cut, there should be lawsuits. God I hate tip hustling dealers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job.

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Great another thread about tipping dealers.
I am a Craps and BJ dealer and this quote is another reason why i will never deal poker. Statements from Jerkoffs like these are why. If you dont beleive in tipping then dont do it, but dont try to influence others on what to do. Its kinda the same as if you are in a hand with someone and he/she is getting advice from others on whether to call or fold. I bet you wouldnt appreciate that.

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good. Dealers who think they should be wealthy are idiots. Try going to college and getting a real job. You shouldnt be making $50/hour dealing poker.

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Why shouldn't I? I may not be the best dealer out there but I have a kick ass job that i love and why shouldn't i get paid well for a job that takes alot of skill and knowledge to be done right? Hell just having to put up with players with piss poor attitudes that blame their crappy play or poor luck on me and the cards i deal.....i should make alot more

Re: \"Jesus\" advises Yang to stiff dealers?
 

still all dealers at all times.