Ratholing NL08.
 

What's your thoughts on these type of people who buyin for the mininum (if bust, reload for mininum) and once win leave and come back in a half an hour?

I was just curious as I've started to do it (as it's amazingly +EV [equity and diffulty wise]), but sometimes I feel like scum.

On the other hand, I love these people to come because they generate the most action because the full stacks are afraid to commit.

Thoughts?

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

It sucks and ruins games for those of us who are looking to play poker?

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I was just curious as I've started to do it (as it's amazingly +EV [equity and diffulty wise]), but sometimes I feel like scum.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt that playing shortstacked is amazingly +EV in PLO8. Most playable hands should be to close in terms of equity preflop and you have to hit the flop in order to get a significant equity edge. But because you have to raise preflop in PL to get your chips all-in on the flop you will also face a lot of tough decisions if you miss the flop. In my opinion playing tight aggressive (VP$IP: 20%) with 1/2 buy-in should be easy to execute and more profitable.

BTW, at the lower levels where I play I don't have encountered a winning shortstacker until now.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

yea sham i tried it on fulltilt 5-10 for a while and MATT we are talking about NO LIMIT but GREAT POINT lol......i ended up like +4k in a week and a half just buying in 298 or 240 (2 whatever change i had)....i agree it IS suprising +EV and i only started losing in the game when i bought in for full....buying in short minimizes losses as well.....all in all if i were to play on fulltilt again id prlly rathol, but then again i make too much on stars to waste my time and get frusterated with it

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

This is the main reason why I personally think NL O8 is a stupid game. It might be very profitable for those who know what they are doing, but I still wouldn't play it. At least in PL (a) there is an element of poker that is hard to get away from and (b) shortstacking is less optimal and, I think, much more difficult to succeed at in a significant manner, as compared to no limit games. Bodog has its share of shortstackers, and there's only one that I know who makes money at the game, and it's not like he makes a lot.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Jury is still out for me on whether it is +EV. I buy-in short because I don't have the roll to play full, and I do NOT emply a rat-hole method of leaving for a half hour and coming back. I consider that unethical. I buy-in for $300-$400 (which is about the level I have the roll to play). I agree it does make decisions considerably easier against LAGs.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jury is still out for me on whether it is +EV. I buy-in short because I don't have the roll to play full, and I do NOT emply a rat-hole method of leaving for a half hour and coming back. I consider that unethical. I buy-in for $300-$400 (which is about the level I have the roll to play). I agree it does make decisions considerably easier against LAGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have the same roll considerations as you, I generally do not leave after winning a pot or two and try to build up from there. That game has been one of my most profitable over the last 6 months though - I am running at about 4BB/100 over the last 6 months.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Buying short and ratholing is unquestionably +EV in NLO8 if you know what you're doing. That's why people do it.

It's a mixed bag in PLO8 unless you're at a table full of LAGtards and can consistently get your $$ in PF.

As for "unethical," that's in the eye of the beholder. It certainly isn't illegal or against the rules. It isn't any more unethical than buying in for a million dollars in a 1/2 NL game where everyone has $100 and you just bully everyone to death.

The fact of the matter is that people who imply that it's unethical just don't like it because it cuts into their edge. If it helped you to win more money, you would never complain about "ethics."

That said, yes, this is why NLO8 is such a stupid game. But hey, if you know that it's stupid, don't play.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Ratholing gone bad....

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...06/rathole.jpg

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ratholing gone bad....

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...06/rathole.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if that is the first 4 days of Oct. Good luck with your no losing months streak. That is a wicked 4 day down streak.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

was in september bro

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

So if u got to know what your doing to make money ratholing, wouldn't you have just as much if not more EV with a full stack

I mean it seems like the good players at nlo8 and plo8 are making their money on latter streets

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Not necessarily.

The short stacking-and-ratholing strategy involves different (some would say less) skills. Basically, you have a predetermined set of hands scripted that you know are generally going to be 55% or better HU and you push every time you see one. You don't mind just picking up the blinds because you know that eventually people are going to get sick of folding and call you with a hand that they shouldn't. Since you are playing with stacks and not chips, the edge is meaningful.

Under some circumstances, you might expand your range. HU you'll use a really wide range. The point is that you don't mind the coin flips and you're really making your money from (1) people who fold to your push and (2) ratholing when you're a stack instead of a stack behind.

Now, this isn't to say that a ratholer couldn't also be good at what we might call a "conventional" game, where you seek to make your money on the later streets. But I think, at least in predator's case, he has discovered a mode of play that works for him better than any other and he is going to ride it until it bucks him. (It seems to be bucking him right now.)

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Another reason why ratholing works better right now online than standard expert big-stack play is that so many players at the higher levels online are really good right now. To play just like every other good player is to play 50/50 at best and potentially give up a skill edge if you aren't as good as you think.

But it's easy to be a ratholer. It negates the big stack's skill advantage, if he has one, and it puts him off his game. As a matter of prinicple, I don't really like it a whole lot, but ratholing does work.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you know are generally going to be 55% or better HU

[/ QUOTE ]

you are far far off. more like 35%-70% in the $5/$10 NLO8 games that are running. the more important aspect is fold equity, but that is all i have to say on the subject...

too many lurkers here, and i don't care to tap the aquarium.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

I was being generous. I'm surprised you said as much as you did ...

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

As I said, personally I will buy somewhat short, (but not as short as 1/5 the buy-in) and I don't think that a 33% buy-in min for instance is too low, but to deal with this, I think you would have to get the sites to raise the min-buy-in a bit, AND more importantly, extend the time period for prohibiting a player from buying short. 1/2 hour is too short to really cut in to profits. Make it 2 hours, and the players who play a lot of hands would think twice.
I have no problem with people making a profit and taking it down, BUT this should not be employed as a strategy to continually sit-out and rebuy and never put yourself at risk. IMHO it is unethical. I think PRED, who can play with a full stack, doing this is a little bogus. Certainly legal though.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
this should not be employed as a strategy to continually sit-out and rebuy and never put yourself at risk. IMHO it is unethical.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is precisely "the system" that Idiot and Predator use, for anyone who cares to learn that trade. they buy-in for the absolute minimum at $5/$10NLO8, play HU and push any Ace or any pocket pair Jacks or higher generally. if limped to, they will also push with must wheel card hands. thus a good counter strategy is to limp/trap with good 4 card hands.

if they bust, they rebuy for the min again at the same table. if they double-up, they open a new 5/10 table for the min buy-in, close the original table, and disallow their opponent to try to win their bigger stack.

keep in mind, this is the "ultra-secret" $5/$10 NLO8 HU strategy. the shortstackers who play the full ring games aren't necessarily all ratholers though, i'd say that less 75% of them are. the majority of the fullring shortstackers are just under rolled.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

F guns

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

For all the NLO8 Haters..

How would a deep stacked 6-max NLO8 table, with a buyin from 100-300bbs run? Would it still be a stupid game?

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

People wouldn't play it.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

If you all MUST know, I started this because I have a newborn and it is impossible to focus on a long PL session because of him as well as lack of focus due to less sleep. It is still in the experimental stages. It is not for someone who tilts easily.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

If short-stacking helps bring more players to the higher limits then I think it is a good thing, the part I object to rat-holing. But that is a part of any NL game. Truth is because hands run so close together in 08, it is a better game for short stacking then HE, but if the site wants to encourage people to really play they should take stonger measures to prevent rat-holing.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

After reading this thread and not wanting to play any real O8 b/c I have pissed off the FTP gods, I decided to short stack some low-limit O8. The very first hand of my ratholing career...

FullTiltPoker Game #3779454720: Table Giles - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 0:08:59 ET - 2007/10/07
Seat 1: Anvemada ($34.35)
Seat 2: highiam ($28.75)
Seat 3: Pams Big Red ($14.50)
Seat 4: BombinPocketABU ($45.35)
Seat 5: Aces n Gators ($50)
Seat 6: trc812 ($58.65)
Seat 7: NEWCHAMP2DAY ($95.15)
Seat 8: phidelt799 ($10)
Seat 9: Dave_78681 ($19)
NEWCHAMP2DAY posts the small blind of $0.25
phidelt799 posts the big blind of $0.50
Aces n Gators posts $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to phidelt799 [9s 9d 6c 6h]
Dave_78681 calls $0.50
Anvemada folds
highiam folds
Pams Big Red calls $0.50
BombinPocketABU folds
Aces n Gators checks
trc812 folds
NEWCHAMP2DAY calls $0.25
phidelt799 checks
*** FLOP *** [6d Js Kh]
NEWCHAMP2DAY checks
phidelt799 bets $9.50, and is all in
Dave_78681 folds
Pams Big Red calls $9.50
Aces n Gators calls $9.50
NEWCHAMP2DAY calls $9.50
*** TURN *** [6d Js Kh] [9h]
NEWCHAMP2DAY checks
Pams Big Red checks
Aces n Gators bets $40, and is all in
NEWCHAMP2DAY folds
Pams Big Red folds
Aces n Gators shows [Ah Jd 2h As]
phidelt799 shows [9s 9d 6c 6h]
*** RIVER *** [6d Js Kh 9h] [8c]
Aces n Gators shows a pair of Aces, for high
phidelt799 shows three of a kind, Nines, for high
phidelt799 wins the pot ($38.50) with three of a kind, Nines
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $40.50 | Rake $2
Board: [6d Js Kh 9h 8c]
Seat 5: Aces n Gators showed [Ah Jd 2h As] and lost with HI: a pair of Aces
Seat 8: phidelt799 (big blind) showed [9s 9d 6c 6h] and won ($38.50) with HI: three of a kind, Nines


And my second ever ratholing hand...

FullTiltPoker Game #3779641231: Table Somerset Hills - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Omaha H/L - 0:31:12 ET - 2007/10/07
Seat 1: Ronjohn ($42.15)
Seat 2: hgoa21 ($29.35)
Seat 3: Shuffler00 ($17.30)
Seat 5: Mykul925 ($20)
Seat 6: phidelt799 ($9.50)
Seat 7: ChurchsChicken ($49.50)
Seat 8: BombinPocketABU ($79.90)
Seat 9: slick710 ($35.55)
phidelt799 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to phidelt799 [Ac 5h As Qc]
ChurchsChicken folds
BombinPocketABU calls $0.50
slick710 calls $0.50
Ronjohn folds
hgoa21 calls $0.50
Shuffler00 folds
phidelt799 raises to $9.50, and is all in
BombinPocketABU folds
slick710 calls $9
hgoa21 folds
phidelt799 shows [Ac 5h As Qc]
slick710 shows [4c Kd Th 5d]
*** FLOP *** [2c Kc 7d]
*** TURN *** [2c Kc 7d] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [2c Kc 7d Qh] [3c]
phidelt799 shows a flush, Ace high, for high andphidelt799 shows 7,5,3,2,A, for low
slick710 shows a pair of Kings, for high andslick710 shows 7,5,4,3,2, for low
phidelt799 wins the high pot ($9.50) with a flush, Ace high
phidelt799 wins the low pot ($9.50) with 7,5,3,2,A
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20 | Rake $1

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Those of you who play NLO8 regularly, what are these people open pushing 60%-150% stacks with? Any AAxx? I have seen three different "average-stats" type players with full stacks open push.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Usually people with a full stack aren't pushing without AA if that is what you are asking... since if someone limped, or has a good AA hand behind them, and they shove they could end up being quite a dog for their whole stack.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you all MUST know, I started this because I have a newborn and it is impossible to focus on a long PL session because of him as well as lack of focus due to less sleep. It is still in the experimental stages. It is not for someone who tilts easily.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes sense -- I remember when you played the MTTs and I don't see you there any more. I thought it was just that the stakes weren't interesting.

I'm more a rec player than you, but I've had the same problem -- it's hard to focus with a newborn. See left.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

So I tried this today because I've been on a [censored] streak and I saw Idiot sitting down so I figured what the hell...Sat with $200 and in 8 hands got up to $707...I think y'all might be onto something here... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

wait for the down tick.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Check the low content...I lost an $1100 pot with AA26ds against AAJ6, where the guy tripped up on the river when I had 2 live flush draws...THAT hurt like hell...Had him right where I wanted him too...LOL

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFDAS!

(Buzz - quoted for deserving a sticky)

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pros:
1 - You can make quick money in any game. If you're looking for a quick +3bb to round off a number (like I know a lot of people do), this is probably the easiest way to do it.

2 - Good players are usually good players that play big stack poker. I don't think many know how to adjust to shortstackers at this point of time.

3 - Dead money is more important than fold equity imo. 5 limpers and i'm shoving almost any 4.

Cons

1 - Yup. Very tilt inducing as well.

2 - I disagree. Surely you can't say the same thing about the pros that play 500/1000 with 30bb cap?

3 - I'm iffy on this one. I definitely do think that you get more action as a shortstack and even more so if you develop a big stack after being a shortstack.

4 - In my experiences, people still have no clue how to adjust properly via range vs. range method. If they adjust, i think it's easier for the shortstack to adjust again and get paid on premium hands.

5 - Just because you buyin for a shortstack doesn't mean you don't have the option of buying in full if you think it's that great of a game. Often times I will double up and then reload to the max because I think that 100BB's > 40bb's at that game.

6 - Meh. I've given up on 'Poker Ethics'. I no longer care about hit and runs (as long as you don't give your word to commit) whether it's from my opponent or if it's myself. I've received many death threats already, and most of them just make me laugh.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Essentially, this is coin-flipping with some occaissional fold equity.

The pros: 1) you can make money quickly
2) you can sit with players that are MUCh better than you and still have a chance.
3) you pick up some higher stake antes on a lower stakes buy-in

CONS:
1) You can lose money really quickly
2) You aren't playing poker
3) If you are good, you are giving up the advantages of a large stack and winning big.
4) When people catch on you'll wind up getting the worst of it more often when you shove, AND picking up fewer antes.
5) Sitting out of good games or places where a big stack would be advantageous is hugely -EV.
6) People will rag you incessantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post. my spin on the big NLO8 games:

I much prefer pot-limit, but I think the fact that the $5/$10 NLO8 game fills in regularly is good for the O8 world overall. It also attracts the most reckless gamblers I've ever seen. An interesting note is that when Idiot29 sits down, the table has a completely different dynamic. He is good at putting others at tilt, but I'm pretty sure he's on life tilt anyways.

I can only imagine how many gamblers have gone broke from this game already, and how many will go broke in the future. I've seen so many unknown players drop $5K in a night that I have to wonder where the money is coming from.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

all of this talk is making me want to put $ onto fulltilt.........dammmit!!

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Been lurking this thread, guess it's long overdue for me to chime in.

FWIW, and this is just my perspective, the ol' open-shove with a strong AAxx hand play in NLO8 has really dried up, a LOT, over the last several months.

It is quite clear to me that the overwhelming majority of NLO8 players know the play, know the exact range the play is made on, and know WHO make the play, so unless you have a really good table selection with a clear newbie who is maniacal/clueless, the play really only collects some dead blinds and more often than not when you get called it's a much tighter race than you want it to be, a lot more 52-48s than 60-40s as it were.

I think the main issue I have with NLO8 is that the core playership has learned the ropes; in the absence of any books, videos, or really any training literature on the game in existance, the player base has self-taught and learned to avoid the basic mistakes and pitfalls of the game. As a result, the only real +EV element of NLO8 is in table selection/identifying newbies. Sitting with regulars that understand the game essentially brings it down to who flops monsters better and avoids being outdrawn better.

Will I still play? Sure, but I do know that it's a much tougher game today than it was a year ago, and with a much slower influx of dead money.

Re: Ratholing NL08.
 

Seems that in the last few months there are more curious onlookers who sit down at NLO8 tables at the 100 max and 50 max tables. I think there are enough players who are finally tiring of the 2-card square dancing that used to be such a thrill ride, and are now looking for the next big thing, call it NLO8's crystal meth to NLHE's pill popping. And like with those drugs the new NLO8er will become a lifer or come off the rails much faster. I've seen triple the number of completely clueless NLO8 players sitting down at tables with 3-5 regulars who now show their iron man chips next to their avatar getting run down like some victim of a gang-war drive by. I wasn't playing these games regularly long ago so I can't draw a fully informed comparison, but it isn't a dry game, maybe you just need a keener eye to spot the dead money.

I also think there are enough different styles that multi-table programmed play is bordering on being fairly exploitable (at least 200 max and below). Just exploit newbies and lower stakes players with your skill, and exploit the discipline of higher stakes multi-tablers with well-timed moves and you can double your win rate.

It seems to me that on FTP anyway, the choice games fluctuate wildly and unpredictably back and forth between NLO8 and PLO8, sometimes session to session or day to day, sometimes week to week. More than ever (keener eye) table selection is key. Some tables' stats look oh-so appealing, but the cast of characters may not be right, or you sit down in the wrong spot, or your chi is just tuned to PL when you're playing NL and you have to HAVE to know how and when to switch formats.

Perhaps the biggest thing to ensuring continued NLO8 success and exploitability is the willingness to start a new table and subject oneself to the inevitable hit and run or ratholer until a few people sit down (ratholers will help the table stats so you don't wait long). I frequently start out losing a half stack during my biggest up sessions, primarily due to this factor. But eventually your notes catch up with the prime offenders and you take them easily. scsmall I'm talking to you.