NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

So I have recently read CMAR's post about crushing shorststacks again and trying to pay a little bit more attention to my play vs SSers now.
How dou you like this line? Spewy? Standard? Or good mix up play?
Villain is shortstacking, but doing it badly IMO. His stats are 23/5/1.1 over 120 hands, stats like this can't work for SS approach, right?
I'm running at 17/11, pretty standard, maybe a bit more loose than normally, due to good cards...

Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $50
UTG+1: $38.75
UTG+2: $49.90
MP1: $33.50
MP2: $28
CO: $50.60
BTN: $50
SB: $10.25
BB: $67.95

Pre-Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero calls $0.50, 3 folds, 3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $3</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $12</font>

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

what's your equity vs his range if his pfr is 5? what is his pfr range even?

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

I'd say his PF range here is something like AA-99, AKs - AT, maybe even KQ and KJ when he thinks he can maybe take the pot down PF here.
9,618,089 games 8.984 secs 1,070,579 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.530% 35.28% 00.25% 3393362 23990.00 { 5c5d }
Hand 1: 64.470% 64.22% 00.25% 6176747 23990.00 { 99+, ATs+, KJs+, KQo }

Taking into consideration now that my move has to look very strong to him (l/rrai, I very rarely do this move), I might even gain some FE here.

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

i don't know how to work stove very well but i'm pretty sure if he's raising the top 5% of his hands only that that's a much tighter range than you gave?

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

What range would you give him then? I could them stove them then and we'll take a look how this changes the equity.
Don't get me wrong, you absolutely might be right and I myself are very undecided if this was a good play I made there...

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

Spew. 17/5 is horrible for a shortstacker, but the 5 part indicates that you're in terrible shape equity wise, and the 17 indicates that he's calling with a lot of hands that will make you say, "how did he call me with that?" He's also raising an UTG limper from the SB.

PFR doesn't converge that well over 120 hands, but his range is probably somewhere in the AQ+,TT+ range, but cold be as wide as 88+, ATs+, AJ, KQs. The problem with your fives here is you're almost never going to be way ahead.

I've shortstacked over 100K hands (yes, a waste of time), and I often see players make this l/rr with 55/QJs, etc, and everytime I laugh. Granted, I'm not playing 17/5, but my raising range is probably not that much different than his.

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
Spew. 17/5 is horrible for a shortstacker, but the 5 part indicates that you're in terrible shape equity wise, and the 17 indicates that he's calling with a lot of hands that will make you say, "how did he call me with that?" He's also raising an UTG limper from the SB.

PFR doesn't converge that well over 120 hands, but his range is probably somewhere in the AQ+,TT+ range, but cold be as wide as 88+, ATs+, AJ, KQs. The problem with your fives here is you're almost never going to be way ahead.

I've shortstacked over 100K hands (yes, a waste of time), and I often see players make this l/rr with 55/QJs, etc, and everytime I laugh. Granted, I'm not playing 17/5, but my raising range is probably not that much different than his.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero is 17/5 not villain. Villain (SS) is running 23/5/1.1. I think you may have misread that Buddha.

That aside....I don't think I can justify a shove here either. I don't think you are getting enough fold equity to compensate being that behind against the range he calls with.

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

We both misread it. Hero is 17/11 and villain is 23/5. lol. 23/5 probably makes shoving worse, IMO. It makes villain look more passive, thus less likely to be raising a marginal hand and less likely to fold to a shove.

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

right it just seems to me instinctively like the top 5% of hands, which is supposedly what he's raising, crushes our pocket 5s. i don't know how to do ranges in stove, so if someone could say i'd be appreciative.

Re: NL50: 55 l/shove vs SS PF raise
 

Dont do that, he isnt folding, we are way behind or slightly ahead, this is really poor.