20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

20/40 (7 players)

Game tempo is similar to Comm 20. Super soft and unreasoned aggression everywhere.

BTN is tighter than the rest of the table and relatively aggressive though I'm seen him be the first to coldcall and open limp 2-3 off the button once or twice. He also is tricky postflop, by slowplaying, screwplaying, and etc.

SB is relatively unknown and has only been sitting at the table for an orbit or two.

Preflop:
Folds, BTN Raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], All call.

Flop: AQ5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, BTN folds, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB bets, Hero calls.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Hmm, you beat the naked Kc on the river don't ya.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

you've got to ...

[ ] know when to hold 'em
[x] know when to fold 'em

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, raise/fold? Why not raise the turn? same price, and he might fold a paired Queen? If he reraises, you know you are dead.

I don't really like call turn, call river here.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard for Commerce, or for everywhere, in your opinion? Because it sure isn't in mine.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Raise turn is awful.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, raise/fold? Why not raise the turn? same price, and he might fold a paired Queen? If he reraises, you know you are dead.

I don't really like call turn, call river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising the turn is pretty pointless.

yea, he might fold a hand like KhQh. except he would never have that hand in the first place.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Your line is fine until the river where you can fold against most players.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

i think against a solid player we can fold the river

other than that i think your line is fine

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

You are no good on the river.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard for Commerce, or for everywhere, in your opinion? Because it sure isn't in mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pay off here with TT and JJ as well, just because that is in my style. I know I suck. I also paid off with J high a few weeks ago, and boy was I wrong. I like to make my laydowns in a heads up pot on the turn, since that saves me two bets. If I get to the river, I am a calling station (Yet you still bluffed me in that one kill pot! which makes it even more amazing)

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

How is JJ different from 22 or KJ for that matter in this hand?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
How is JJ different from 22 or KJ for that matter in this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
It beats accidental hands that SB can make on the river like Kc5x or Jc8x. I call in this spot and catch a bluff more often then 1 out of 8 times.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

I agree, raising the turn is awful...but you might get him off of some hands?

My main point is, call turn/call river is awful...what are you beating besides a bluff? If you raise, you pay the same price as call/call (2bb) and you push him off of his pure bluffs, which in some cases, could draw out and beat you.

Why call/call? I think you make a decision, you either fold (best option) or raise and beat the bluffs outright. If he is already ahead....you are call/calling to do? what? pay him off?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your line is fine until the river where you can fold against most players.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

I guess that is true? But i struggle to think of another reasonable hand you beat on that river. When he comes out betting on the river, I think it's fold time (Although, I would probably fold on the turn)

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Im not a fan of calling any of them, of course id rather have 99 than JJ though.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would do the same thing with JJ that i would do with 99 on the river

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im not a fan of calling any of them, of course id rather have 99 than JJ though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better way of putting it.

To be honest, except for a few posts, I think the analysis in this thread has been pretty shoddy and most of my IM conversations seem to agree. Thoughts on SBs range? What hands would you weight more strongly and which would you discount?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Don't worry variance will even out soon enough.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is standard. Folding makes baby jesus cry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, raise/fold? Why not raise the turn? same price, and he might fold a paired Queen? If he reraises, you know you are dead.

I don't really like call turn, call river here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? That doesn't make any sense at all. The only hand he's folding is a Q. Besides that, we'd usually just be charging ourselves to draw if we did that.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that make sense, I'm confused.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

I think this hand looks standard to me seeing that SB is completely unknown

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

Pretty convinced he's got KJo with either the K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] aren't you?

I can't see calling the river.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that make sense, I'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adding the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to my hand removes it from villain's range.

Again, haven't really gotten anything out of anyone. What is SBs range?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone think it is ridiculous to call TT-99[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and fold JJ[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that make sense, I'm confused.

[/ QUOTE ]

Adding the J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to my hand removes it from villain's range.

Again, haven't really gotten anything out of anyone. What is SBs range?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I'll take a stab at it since no one else will:

How about A with a good kicker (since he called a pre-flop raise)? Maybe with a good [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] maybe without. He could have K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he could have J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], either of which he's not folding to any raise. Or maybe he has two pair AQ? He's not folding that either. Then of course, there's the standard made flush, bottom set. He could have a Queen and still beat you.

The only reason you can call the river is because you've seen villain make a move on the field before, because you can only really beat a bluff. Folding the river is standard, and since he's a complete unknown, I'd be hard-pressed to give him credit for anything but a good hand. So yeah, calling the river would be...extraordinary. Bad time for a heroic call. I can only guess you wanted to look him up for info, but there are other times for that. Personally, I think raising is better than calling, but folding is still best by a long country mile.

Garland

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest, except for a few posts, I think the analysis in this thread has been pretty shoddy and most of my IM conversations seem to agree.

[/ QUOTE ]*sigh* I was hoping I'd be pleasantly surprised when I opened this thread.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
How about A with a good kicker (since he called a pre-flop raise)? Maybe with a good [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] maybe without. He could have K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], he could have J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], either of which he's not folding to any raise. Or maybe he has two pair AQ? He's not folding that either. Then of course, there's the standard made flush, bottom set. He could have a Queen and still beat you.

The only reason you can call the river is because you've seen villain make a move on the field before, because you can only really beat a bluff. Folding the river is standard, and since he's a complete unknown, I'd be hard-pressed to give him credit for anything but a good hand. So yeah, calling the river would be...extraordinary. Bad time for a heroic call. I can only guess you wanted to look him up for info, but there are other times for that. Personally, I think raising is better than calling, but folding is still best by a long country mile.

Garland

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice post.

Another question, how should you play K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]

Another question, how should you play K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

KcKs makes it less likely he is trying to snow you with Jcx, right? So oddly enough, we should be more inclined to fold this stronger hand. But unfortunately we beat QxJc. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Some players are like that. They think they're bluffing, and then accidently value-bet their 2nd/3rd pair on the river when you have an underpair.

I think you're cooked in this TT hand, but against tricky types, I have a hard time giving it up even I though I feel stupid most of the time when they show me A-no kicker.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

The SB's range seems to me to mostly consist of hands that whoop your a$$. I think this is an easy river fold.

In general, I don't give an unknown credit for check-raising the flop with the lone J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I give him even less credit for pushing it the whole way trying to get you off a hand. The K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] is obviously a possibility, but IMO, it's a relatively small part of his range. It seems unlikely that an unknown who would flat call a button raise from the SB will all of a sudden get cute with a bare flush draw and bluff it the whole way. Sure, a few select players are tricky in that weird way, but you have no evidence that the SB here is of that mold.

I think his range is far more polarized to a made flush with two random suited cards, an ace, two pair, or 555 (FWIW, I think a queen is a pretty small part of his range; again, is a player who flats a button raise from the SB c/r'ing middle pair on a monotone flop?). Your equity seems very bad on the river, and I honestly don't think it's especially good on the turn either, because you can't play perfectly on the river no matter what card hits.

Re: 20/40 I\'m a Payoff Machine
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Another question, how should you play K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]

KcKs makes it less likely he is trying to snow you with Jcx, right? So oddly enough, we should be more inclined to fold this stronger hand. But unfortunately we beat QxJc. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Some players are like that. They think they're bluffing, and then accidently value-bet their 2nd/3rd pair on the river when you have an underpair.

I think you're cooked in this TT hand, but against tricky types, I have a hard time giving it up even I though I feel stupid most of the time when they show me A-no kicker.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if we have Kc we have the nut flush draw! Why would we be more inclined to fold that? You must be talking about the river portion only, right?

I think with KcKs, early in the hand you play more aggressively and semi-bluff the flop with a reraise. I like a reraise on the flop because 1) You learn more information about your opponents hand for cheap bets and 2) It's not weak, like call/call. (You could also semi-bluff raise the turn, if you think a specific opponent will toss a range of hands)

As for the river, even with KK, against most opponents, if they come out betting on the river, you are toast. fold it.

Any thoughts?