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-   -   ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot) (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=535766)

Chomp 11-15-2007 12:55 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
has any1 ever claimed that you couldn´t be sucessful playing 400nl as a 20/10?

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually Monkover, I think lots of people have suggested this. I mean, the entire FGators business as elucidated by Clayton was about his inability to take risks and out-play/out aggro people post. 20/10/1.5 hardly suggests that aggro, 2+2/CR type game.

OP's low postflop aggression suggests very little bluffing, very little shoving for FE and is generally the epitome of risk-aversion, not risk-taking.

Also, 400NL is the level that the conventional wisdom suggests where "real" poker begins. I think it would come as as shock to many that there is a 20/10 game that can crush that level. And this guy is CRUSHING.

Dunno, I suppose it is all about postflop - and not just postflop aggression, which this dude doesn't have. He must play the FToP brilliantly.

Finally, the hate in that BBV thread is embarrassing. Seriously, one monkey says the OP's results are dues to good BR management and good table selection and not "good poker". LMFAO. What a moron (not least because BR management and table slecetion are 100% about good poker...what you do when sitting down is only a percentage of it).

Finally finally, I'd give my left bollock to be able to beat 400NL for any amount. RB alone @ 400NL as a breakeven player would probably be three times my current profits. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:07 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
i don't know anyone can play 20/10. too big of a gap for me. 20/18, ok. but only 10 pfr is weird and means either i have to make hands and get paid off (so, hoping pfr makes a hand too) or have to bluff steal postflop against a pfr, which gets messy quickly and is not low variance. or i fold alot postflop when i don't make a hand, which adds up quickly.

i don't get it.

Mr_Pathetic 11-15-2007 01:11 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
if i had the time and money i could easily learn to play a loose aggressive/passive game (say 30/25/1.5). its that time and money aspect of learning that i can't go through right now. also learning a unique style takes even more skill and time then learning tag poker. so for his style of 20/10/1.8 or whatever he is doing a lot of calling and if you can't read people well then this style won't work. besides the better you read your opponents the less it matters how you play as your plays depend on them and not the cards you hold.

Wilpro 11-15-2007 01:12 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
If anyone can post a pic of their Pokerev graph, that looks more depressing than mine, i will transfer them by bankroll!

bozzer 11-15-2007 01:13 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
wow ama just got on massive tilt in that cleaner thread. i'd actually take issue with your last point about ranges only being value ranges and bluff ranges vs a suspected light 3bettor.

ama, i understand why you locked the thread, but i would be interested in talking about your post. could you unlock it, or can i make a new thread to discuss?

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:30 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
in that thread ama says his table selection is bad

he seems to miss that Fredd20 is at the table, who might be one of the worst regs i've played against

Gelford 11-15-2007 01:30 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]

i don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is there to get, he calls in position a lot vs loose aggresive 2+2ers and then lets them fire multiple barrels into him

They feed their egos and he gets the rent paid .. it is a win/win situation [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:33 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
passive in position (pre and post) with marginal hands. bumpy ride imo

edit: i just looked at his graph again. 400k hands and a smooth graph. i still don't get it.

Gelford 11-15-2007 01:36 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
passive in position (pre and post) with marginal hands. bumpy ride imo

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Phildo 11-15-2007 01:45 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
has any1 ever claimed that you couldn´t be sucessful playing 400nl as a 20/10?

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually Monkover, I think lots of people have suggested this. I mean, the entire FGators business as elucidated by Clayton was about his inability to take risks and out-play/out aggro people post. 20/10/1.5 hardly suggests that aggro, 2+2/CR type game.

OP's low postflop aggression suggests very little bluffing, very little shoving for FE and is generally the epitome of risk-aversion, not risk-taking.

Also, 400NL is the level that the conventional wisdom suggests where "real" poker begins. I think it would come as as shock to many that there is a 20/10 game that can crush that level. And this guy is CRUSHING.

Dunno, I suppose it is all about postflop - and not just postflop aggression, which this dude doesn't have. He must play the FToP brilliantly.

Finally, the hate in that BBV thread is embarrassing. Seriously, one monkey says the OP's results are dues to good BR management and good table selection and not "good poker". LMFAO. What a moron (not least because BR management and table slecetion are 100% about good poker...what you do when sitting down is only a percentage of it).

Finally finally, I'd give my left bollock to be able to beat 400NL for any amount. RB alone @ 400NL as a breakeven player would probably be three times my current profits. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're putting too much stock in some guy's ability to beat a super soft Swedish only site.

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:45 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
i'm assuming he's playing on a small fishy site.

i once played on a swedish site (a year ago or so) and the players were beyond horrible.

Gelford 11-15-2007 01:49 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
i'm assuming he's playing on a small fishy site.

i once played on a swedish site (a year ago or so) and the players were beyond horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you grew tired of super soft swedish 400NL ???

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:51 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
could only play 2 tables at a time (back then). plus people chatting in swedish put me on tilt.

i might have to visit the site again actually.

thing85 11-15-2007 01:52 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
I can't believe you're grinding away on Stars when you have fishy site options. I wish I wasn't limited to Stars...

derosnec 11-15-2007 01:54 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
i don't know if i still have that option. it was pre-legislation.

the site was a pokerroom on Tradesports (i was dabbling in options at TS). TS gave you access to some swedish site, but it wasn't TS's own poker room. whole thing was weird.

Gelford 11-15-2007 01:56 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
could only play 2 tables at a time (back then). plus people chatting in swedish put me on tilt.

i might have to visit the site again actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

r
Yeah people going "bork bork björn borg chocolate mousse" in the chat have often annoyed me enough to say: screw these juicy 400NL tables.

Chomp 11-15-2007 01:58 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Well Gelford, I'm with Derosnec - I just don't get it.

To me, this debate isn't about stats or style, it's about one thing and one thing only: where do our profits in NL come from?

2+2 would have us believe they come from:

1. Standard value-taking with our good hands
2. Selective aggression and risk taking when we have a bad or marginal hand - for example shoving for FE, 3b light, bluff raising, positional stealing, squeezing etc.

But our friend Coco would apparently disagree as I cannot see how ANY of those things in #2 are a large part of his game.

I mean, does Coco fold to all aggression and hardly ever attempt to make people fold? It certainly looks that way to me. I mean, just look at the lack of variance in his graph - it's incredible.

People say you become too exploitable if you fold to raises a lot and just play ABC for value. Well, Coco is evidence this may not be true up to 400NL. I would love to try an experiment where I fold every time I am raised, never bluff, only put money into pots for value, never shove etc.

Phildo 11-15-2007 02:01 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
You seem to be assuming this guy is playing at FTP/Stars. He isn't.

The only thing I'm taking out that thread is "move to Sweden".

derosnec 11-15-2007 02:03 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
chomp, it's likely that coco plays against retards on a small site, not against msnl regs (like aejones, etc).

when i played live this summer for a week in vegas (200nl), my stats were probably like coco's because my opponents had an IQ of roughly zero

Spurious 11-15-2007 02:03 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
It really depends, if it is a only swedish room than his accomplishment is ok, but not great.
I can play NL1k live at my local card room with a 5/5 style and be a constant winner.

Chomp 11-15-2007 02:03 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
has any1 ever claimed that you couldn´t be sucessful playing 400nl as a 20/10?

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually Monkover, I think lots of people have suggested this. I mean, the entire FGators business as elucidated by Clayton was about his inability to take risks and out-play/out aggro people post. 20/10/1.5 hardly suggests that aggro, 2+2/CR type game.

OP's low postflop aggression suggests very little bluffing, very little shoving for FE and is generally the epitome of risk-aversion, not risk-taking.

Also, 400NL is the level that the conventional wisdom suggests where "real" poker begins. I think it would come as as shock to many that there is a 20/10 game that can crush that level. And this guy is CRUSHING.

Dunno, I suppose it is all about postflop - and not just postflop aggression, which this dude doesn't have. He must play the FToP brilliantly.

Finally, the hate in that BBV thread is embarrassing. Seriously, one monkey says the OP's results are dues to good BR management and good table selection and not "good poker". LMFAO. What a moron (not least because BR management and table slecetion are 100% about good poker...what you do when sitting down is only a percentage of it).

Finally finally, I'd give my left bollock to be able to beat 400NL for any amount. RB alone @ 400NL as a breakeven player would probably be three times my current profits. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're putting too much stock in some guy's ability to beat a super soft Swedish only site.

[/ QUOTE ]


He plays on Prima, OnGame, Party and B2B, as you'd see if you read the FTP thread.

And if I may say with respect that your dismissive attitude to this guy's remarkable achievements is pretty depressing in a Micro stakes forum.

Gelford 11-15-2007 02:04 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
You are making up fairy tales.


Poker is about reading hands (or rather estimating ranges). Once you have that down, you are set to go with any style.

And 400NL is sick aggro, which is why you can get by with a more passive style that at 100NL.

And finally let's not underestimate how bad tables can be .. even at 400NL.


I take my hat of to the hero of this tale for a job well done .. it is a big achievement and food for thought.

Phildo 11-15-2007 02:10 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
has any1 ever claimed that you couldn´t be sucessful playing 400nl as a 20/10?

[/ QUOTE ]


Actually Monkover, I think lots of people have suggested this. I mean, the entire FGators business as elucidated by Clayton was about his inability to take risks and out-play/out aggro people post. 20/10/1.5 hardly suggests that aggro, 2+2/CR type game.

OP's low postflop aggression suggests very little bluffing, very little shoving for FE and is generally the epitome of risk-aversion, not risk-taking.

Also, 400NL is the level that the conventional wisdom suggests where "real" poker begins. I think it would come as as shock to many that there is a 20/10 game that can crush that level. And this guy is CRUSHING.

Dunno, I suppose it is all about postflop - and not just postflop aggression, which this dude doesn't have. He must play the FToP brilliantly.

Finally, the hate in that BBV thread is embarrassing. Seriously, one monkey says the OP's results are dues to good BR management and good table selection and not "good poker". LMFAO. What a moron (not least because BR management and table slecetion are 100% about good poker...what you do when sitting down is only a percentage of it).

Finally finally, I'd give my left bollock to be able to beat 400NL for any amount. RB alone @ 400NL as a breakeven player would probably be three times my current profits. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're putting too much stock in some guy's ability to beat a super soft Swedish only site.

[/ QUOTE ]


He plays on Prima, OnGame, Party and B2B, as you'd see if you read the FTP thread.

And if I may say with respect that your dismissive attitude to this guy's remarkable achievements is pretty depressing in a Micro stakes forum.

[/ QUOTE ]
B2B would be the super soft Swedish site.

When MDMA tells me he'd get crushed playing like that on FTP/Stars I'm going to listen to him.

derosnec 11-15-2007 02:10 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
let's pool our BRs and designate one person to play 400nl at one of these small site (preferably gelford since he might be good at poker).

Spurious 11-15-2007 02:11 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
let's pool our BRs and designate one person to play 400nl at one of these small site (preferably gelford since he might be good at poker).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] (only a few hundreds bucks tho)

Gelford 11-15-2007 02:15 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
let's pool our BRs and designate one person to play 400nl at one of these small site (preferably gelford since he might be good at poker).

[/ QUOTE ]

Thx for the kind words, but .... I don't buy the super soft swedish site talk, there are too many good players around especially swedes, finns and other scando's, so that if the b2b network was softer they would shift sites. (at least at MSNL and up) ... too much money involved.

bsball8806 11-15-2007 02:20 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
i went out and got farrrrrrrrkin drunk. Hooeked up with this chick and went to take a leak and forgot what she looked like so i left :<.

No root for me tonight.....gay

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL can't say that's ever happened to me...though last week I pretended to be sick so I could leave this girl's apartment because I couldn't "get it up"

whyzze 11-15-2007 02:25 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
im with gelford here.

He is playing basically the opposite of what solid poker is - therefore by deduction, it should be very effective againt solid poker.

Playing like a station in position in very aggressive games should be very profitable. And lol at him never bluffing.

SDone 11-15-2007 02:28 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $5.35
SB: $5.95
BB: $2.80
Hero (UTG): $15.80
MP: $2.90
CO: $10.50

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $0.40</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">BTN raises to $0.90</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $5.10</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7.20</font>, BTN calls $0.25 and is All-In

Flop: ($10.85) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($10.85) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($10.85) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $10.85 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
BTN showed T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (four of a kind, Tens) and WON $10.35 (+$5 NET)
Hero showed K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (two pair, Kings and Tens) and LOST (-$5.35 NET)


This is how my week has been going.
At least he was short.

whyzze 11-15-2007 02:32 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
here we go. being a station in position. This was very early in HU, so no crazy reads or anything. I jus know he plays a 7 super aggro here and wont fire the river without an 8.


Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 2 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $100.50
BB: $106.50

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $3</font>, BB calls $2

Flop: ($6) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $14</font>, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($34) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">BB bets $26</font>, Hero calls $26

River: ($86) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Results: $86 Pot ($0.50 Rake)
Hero showed 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (two pair, Eights and Sixes) and WON $85.50 (+$42.50 NET)
BB showed 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-$43 NET)

Gigglegirl 11-15-2007 02:35 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Well Gelford, I'm with Derosnec - I just don't get it.

To me, this debate isn't about stats or style, it's about one thing and one thing only: where do our profits in NL come from?

2+2 would have us believe they come from:

1. Standard value-taking with our good hands
2. Selective aggression and risk taking when we have a bad or marginal hand - for example shoving for FE, 3b light, bluff raising, positional stealing, squeezing etc.

But our friend Coco would apparently disagree as I cannot see how ANY of those things in #2 are a large part of his game.

I mean, does Coco fold to all aggression and hardly ever attempt to make people fold? It certainly looks that way to me. I mean, just look at the lack of variance in his graph - it's incredible.

People say you become too exploitable if you fold to raises a lot and just play ABC for value. Well, Coco is evidence this may not be true up to 400NL. I would love to try an experiment where I fold every time I am raised, never bluff, only put money into pots for value, never shove etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I play a similar game to that guy, 21/11 at the moment @100NL, and I'm winning at a similar level. And I have a similar looking lifetime graph, although not at his $ amounts ldo.
And I don't do any of the bluffing, squeezing, 3betting light or w/e and I fold to aggression plenty.
My profits come from good table selection and bad players paying me off with junk.

bravos1 11-15-2007 02:44 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]

when i played live this summer for a week in vegas (200nl), my stats were probably like coco's because my opponents had an IQ of roughly zero

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparing 200NL live to 400NL+ online is just insane. 200NL live is like 10NL-50NL online. 400NL online is sick aggro compared the micro games irrespective of the site/network.

Yes, this guy is playing an unorthodox style in these bigger games but is playing well IMO by raping the over aggro LAGs and fish.

It's very similar to calling a gutshot on the turn getting insufficient odds because you know that villain will give you his deep stack 80% of the time if you do hit.

BTW, there is no chance that b2b can be THAT OVERTLY fishy. If it was, all of the mid-high stakes pros making a decent living here(US) would instantly flock to Europe for a few years and play.

losingdonkey 11-15-2007 02:51 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
playing like utter [censored] today, like really bad. Time for a break.

Phildo 11-15-2007 02:52 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Everyone claims that Party is still much better than FTP and Stars and there aren't a lot of people moving so they can play on Party.

Also it's fairly difficult to relocate permanently to Europe without a job or any real skills (poker is not a skill) unless you're willing to marry or you have a few million dollars to invest. And if you have a few million dollars to invest moving so you can make a little bit more money probably isn't your highest priority.

Gelford 11-15-2007 02:55 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
Who cares about the US players, you are aware that there are plenty of good euro players right ?


Btw, there was a big datamining thread in MSNL a while back comparing Tilt and Party 400NL .. no differences where found.

whyzze 11-15-2007 02:58 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
meh, legislation will change eventually. Im sure harrah's has their online casino software developed and ready to go. Im not sure about how it will affect things like rakeback and bonus. But one thing that will be really cool is im sure there will be tons of hotel comps and stuff like that...aside from ipods and hats.

Phildo 11-15-2007 03:02 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares about the US players, you are aware that there are plenty of good euro players right ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said there weren't.

ssdex 11-15-2007 03:06 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
hey kids, i took a little vacation from 2+2, obv not from poker, anyone miss me?

PJo336 11-15-2007 03:16 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
[ QUOTE ]
hey kids, i took a little vacation from 2+2, obv not from poker, anyone miss me?

[/ QUOTE ]
i did sir

wingchunflush 11-15-2007 03:19 PM

Re: ***uNL Microbrew Thread*** NOV 2007 (ot)
 
you sir are one hard guy to IM


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