Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Live 4-8

4 LPPs limp to me in the CO I raise w A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], LAG OTB 3 bets, blinds fold , limpers and me call.Should I cap here?

flop K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](19sbs)
checked to button who bets all call, I raise, all call.

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](15.5 bbs)

checked to me. If I don't bet here, I'm 95% sure the button will. If I do bet, there's a very good chance he'll raise.Whats my plan?

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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Live 4-8

4 LPPs limp to me in the CO I raise w A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], LAG OTB 3 bets, blinds fold , limpers and me call.Should I cap here?

flop K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img](19sbs)
checked to button who bets all call, I raise, all call.

Turn 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img](15.5 bbs)

checked to me. If I don't bet here, I'm 95% sure the button will. If I do bet, there's a very good chance he'll raise.Whats my plan?

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If you bet and otb raises, what do you think the LPPs will do when it's two cold back to them? You have ace high with 5 other players. I don't think you're cleaning up any ace outs here by facing the field with two cold if you bet and he raises. Check the turn, call his bet, and hit one of your 39.273 outs.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

i just call the 3 bet pre-flop. i think i c/c the turn,hope its only one back to me. your draws are to the nuts and i dont want to lose customers here.although betting out the turn might be better as flush draws are not folding to 2 bets anyway. i think its close,but i think its a c/c line?

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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i just call the 3 bet pre-flop. i think i c/c the turn,hope its only one back to me. your draws are to the nuts and i dont want to lose customers here.although betting out the turn might be better as flush draws are not folding to 2 bets anyway. i think its close,but i think its a c/c line?

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If OP is sure that villain will bet, and you want the others paying 2 bets for their flush draws, why not just c/r the field? Villain may even re-raise and OP could cap. BTW, I'm not advocating the play.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

the question is betwen check raising and check calling, right? i'm voting for check raise if it's multi way, especially if you don't think button will 3 bet. and calling heads up.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

r we sure the button wont check through the turn, i mean hero c/r the flop and the button just called. how can we be 95% sure the button will bet? i like betting the turn

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

He had already cut out 16 chips, and he was up about 3 racks and was not shy about betting/raising.I guess I should have included this in the post, sorry.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

This is a big pot and a big part of my question is should I bet into him and have him possibly face everyone with 2 cold.Is this the way to maximize my chances to win, or should I be looking to check raise a big field for value/ just call if heads up 1 caller?

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

how does knocking other players out help you win? i guess there's an outside possibility you're buying an ace out, but i'm pretty convinced you're gonna have to crying call if an ace comes.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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This is a big pot and a big part of my question is should I bet into him and have him possibly face everyone with 2 cold.Is this the way to maximize my chances to win, or should I be looking to check raise a big field for value/ just call if heads up 1 caller?

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your not looking to maximize your chances of winning as a previous poster stated, your not cleaning up you any ace outs. your looking to maximize value if you do win. you have a big draw, and thier all to the nuts, so why r u looking to get HU?

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Dunno about preflop, cap or call.

On the turn, your c/r has been called in five places. I doubt you are ahead here nor will you be able to significantly improve your chances of winning the pot by betting (AT, AJ, A7 folding?).

Our bet or Btn's subsequent raise would have to be called by two of the four limpers for it to be of value to you (we improve 25% of the time to nut straight or flush). If you think the risk of Btn raising and folding two of the limpers is too big, then check and let Btn bet this for you. Free card isn't a catastrophe as you probably are behind currently.

You might consider even a c/r if Btn's bet is called in enough places.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

i think betting here will do a couple of things.
1) it prevents the turn from being checked through
2) it adds a little deception to our hand as weve already represented a made hand, thus giving more action on the river from flush draws

a raise from the button is not a disasterwith the amount of equity we have here and i dont think flush draws are going any where for 2 cold

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

I think that I would have just bet the flop, instead of checkraising. If I got raised, then I think a threebet would be in order, especially if you were still playing against a field.

Right now, any money put in the pot, is probably going in at about even equity for you.

If you make your hand, especially with a jack, you can almost be certain that the button is going to bet, and you will get to checkraise the entire field on the river, when you have 100% equity.

Additionally, all those player who are calling, maybe one of them has smaller spades, which does two things, it means that you have fewer outs, and it also means that they may be planning on checkraising the river. So if the river gets checked to the maniac, it might get checkraised in front of you, and then you can threebet it.

Or, they might bet out on the river, and you could raise it.

Finally, he has bet the flop, and then called, and now is making it like he is going to raise your ber on the turn. I suspect that he might be on a draw here, and is trying to get a freecard from you. You actually have the nut draw, and there isn't really anyone who has done anything but call single bets so far. I think that I might bet, hope that he raises, and in that case, if it gets to headsup, I am going to call him down unimproved.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

bob,
how do you adjust the value of our hand giving the possibility of other FD's?

also, what drawing hands can we put villian on here given his 3- bet preflop?

my apology to OP for hijacking. thanks, fuzz.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

i think capping pf is fine.

i dont bet the turn, and i dont care that it gives away my hand.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

so, you'll capp A-10s preflop, but wont bet with a royal flush draw. fair enough

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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so, you'll capp A-10s preflop, but wont bet with a royal flush draw. fair enough

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I'm thinking ATs versus 5 opponents preflop has a larger equity advantage than our hand here on the turn against who knows how many opponents? In fact, unless we get 5 callers (maybe 4), I doubt our hand has any equity advantage here at all. FWIW, I also just check here and probably only raise for value if everyone else calls. This is a huge pot; I doubt we're freeing up any outs and someone is definitely showing down a hand.

GcluelessnoobG

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Grunch:

PF: I like it. If one of the blinds had 3 towned it, I'd cap it, but with the button behind you, just call.

Flop: I don't like it unless he'd actually already put his chips in the pot before you checked. If he checks behind you this is a disaster. And in a pot this big, his raise is going to be called by all the LPPs anyway and you can 3 town it and print some more expectational money. Just bet.

Turn: If you are sure he will bet, just check and call. You likely don't have as many outs as everyone is giving you credit for (there MUST be another flush draw out against you, and another AT is possible as well). Also, facing the field with 2 cold is VERY unlikely to buy you any outs.

River: I advocate spiking the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and collecting the royal flush bonus.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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so, you'll capp A-10s preflop, but wont bet with a royal flush draw. fair enough

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check the op's post.

"good chance he'll raise the turn."

i dont think being HU on the turn with this hand is a good idea.

you might also want to check how many callers you need to make betting the turn +EV, instead of just thinking, "ZOMG royal flush draw!"

on a similar vein, instead of thinking, "man i only have ATs no one in their right mind caps this," you should start considering how much pf equity your hand has vs a LAG and a bunch of probably dumb limpers.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

check if we are 95% sure he will bet. it would be UGLY to bet only to have him raise and force out the rest of the field. dont we want those other players in the hand if we make our hand?

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

"man i only have ATs no one in their right mind caps this," is exactly what you want them to think, so capping with this hand at times is okay.

I am leaning more towards a turn check with your read here than a bet here. If you are that suer he is going to bet that is. Even if it does get checked through it is not the end of the world as the pot is still big and you have a great drawing hand. That said, you betting the turn isn't bad either IMO.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Can someone explain why we would possibly want to bet the turn here? I think the following statements are most likely all true, no?

We are currently not the best hand.
The button is not going to raise a worse hand than ours (thus driving out better hands than ours and making us best).
Unless almost everyone calls we don't have an equity edge.
It is unlikely than a bet is going to free up an out that could make us best.

The last point might be the only debatable one?

Is it because a bet disguises our hand more so we really kill when we hit our draw? But if lots go to the river and our draw card comes up, maybe a villain won't put US on making our draw but they'll likely put SOMEONE on making their draw, so how does this really help?

GcluelessnoobG

ETA: Why is everyone so concerned about this turn checking thru (i.e. check if 95% sure button will bet for us)? This is not even close to being a disaster and is probably a lot more closer to what we'd like to happen...

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Results are that the Button had KJ, and a mp limper had A7.An A came on the river and the mp won a huge pot.I find myself in these situations quite often where I have a big draw in a huge pot and I was wondering if this is the type of hand I need to be more aggressive in.I believe that had I bet, the button most likely would have raised and maybe? the mp would have folded.I was wondering if this is the time to try and buy a few outs with aggressive play, or am I just pissed because I lost.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

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ETA: Why is everyone so concerned about this turn checking thru (i.e. check if 95% sure button will bet for us)? This is not even close to being a disaster and is probably a lot more closer to what we'd like to happen...

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We could have 12 outs (9 spades and 3 more jacks) against 5 opponents. We need 3 calls for this bet to be break even, and 4 to start making money. Gobbley is right; the turn checking through is far from a disaster.

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Well, yuck, that was a disastrous result. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] A7 would be getting immediate 18.5:2, maybe almost enough to continue regardless?

GcluelessnoobG

Re: Big draw on the turn in big pot
 

Dont fret OP, you will win these pots often enough with your draws and they are so big that just getting a few of them will make for a nice win.