FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Notice Stacks
Villain is Apestyles. Veryyy Aggressive and very good.
He wanted me to point out that he was drinking and the only reason he was playing this tourney was too win and get PLB's b/c of a bet.
Payouts:
1.5670
2.3780
3.2250

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t2000/t4000
(Ante: t400)
3 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: t203844
SB: t379018
BB: t27638

Pre-flop: (3 players) Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t12000</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to t72000</font>, BB folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in t203444</font>

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Notice the guy in 3rd has &lt; 6 BBs after the BB and is nitty as hell. Hasn't played a hand in 2-3 orbits. Basically, without ridiculous luck he is going out 3rd. Oh, and it should be known that I almost never fold getting 2.2:1 preflop.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

looks like a clear fold to the 3-bet.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Not sure. Ape will dwefinitely 3-bet you pretty wide here you`re probably right about it being +cEV at least. I`m not an ICM but I suspect it`s still very -SEV though. Pretty straightforward to do the math and find out what equity you need against his range (I`m obv too lazy right now tho).

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure. Ape will dwefinitely 3-bet you pretty wide here you`re probably right about it being +cEV at least. I`m not an ICM but I suspect it`s still very -SEV though. Pretty straightforward to do the math and find out what equity you need against his range (I`m obv too lazy right now tho).

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

His 6x 3bet is so goofy you must have his range obliterated. Any $EV calculations would assume he's calling here, I don't think he is. It's a game of chicken, he repped that he was pot committed (although he wouldn't ever play a good hand this way), you repped that you didn't care that he was pot committed. I like the play.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

If he had shoved would you fold? Cause this is the exact same thing.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

I agree. My raise basically is saying my hand sucks but u cant call.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

But if you think your opponent is hip to an inverse relationship of bet size and hand strength you can pull something like this with a big pair to elicit the allin ...

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

I haven't played sit-n-goes in awhile but given the situation my instincts are that this is terrible.

Whoops lol I said open shove but didnt see how deep you guys were. Still hate this play.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But if you think your opponent is hip to an inverse relationship of bet size and hand strength you can pull something like this with a big pair to elicit the allin ...

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Given the short stacked 3rd player, ZJ will have to fold mediocre hands to any sized reraise, will shove strong hands over a normal sized reraise but fold (or consider folding, as in this thread) them to a huge "I'm pot committed reraise". So if apestyles has a monster hand, making a normal sized reraise dominates making a larger reraise, which means it's as good as or better than in all possible scenarios. Which is why I said he would never do this with a good hand.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

OP should be playing very tight here with stack sizes. I would be willing to play the short stack, but play tight with ape to act. Possibly raise smaller here.

The large reraise is obviously pot committing, so fold. If ape keeps doing this every time you raise, then you can reevaluate.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

can someone ICM this? I guess you need a very high equity to push this assuming he will never fold.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Christian,

It doesn't matter how wide his range is. This is a fold.

Yours,

Goggles

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Say ape has a random hand, then you are 60% to win. If your expectation is $5K if you go allin and win the hand, then your overall expectation is $3900 going allin. This is only slightly more than 2nd place money, which you are almost guarenteed by folding.

In the first place, you should raise less or maybe open fold this hand.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

think u need TT+

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's bad even if ape is shoving 100%. assuming ape is shoving 100%, i think u'd need TT+.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's bad even if ape is shoving 100%. assuming ape is shoving 100%, i think u'd need TT+.

[/ QUOTE ]
wow really this seems kinda tight but calling range shpuld def be tighter than a 9 o and up

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you open raising?

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

well not shoving, but 3 betting. And i thought I can 4bet and he fold (if he made a standard reraise), but after the big reraise i was 90% sure he was calling my shove, but i new i crushed his range. I think part of my fault here, is my pride, which shouldn't be a factor, but i wasn't going too let him abuse me constantly.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Whoa I thought you had 99, when you actually had A9. This is bad! You need a big pair to shove here!

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter how wide his range is. This is a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Also, JZ you said something about being constantly abused by him, unfortunately for you in this situation villain can really abuse you a lot and not much you can do about it. By shoving here you only hurt yourself.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

raise/calling is worse than open pushing with a typical prize structure. I don't care how deep it seems. If you felt he was going to reraise you with everything, than it was a probably a blunder to play as you did, regardless of whether calling is correct after the reraise. I believe he would definitely fold ATo, and probably even AJo if you simply opened allin, due to big strategical advantages to keeping the action going and due to huge fear that you opened allin for 50x the BB!

You could open limp, because it makes it more likely that if he raises your limp it won't commit himself. Of course the downside is that the BB gets to see a free flop. Probably min raising is better than your raise because again he might not make a committing raise and you will lose 4k less but it has close to the same affect on the BB.

Anyway if I was in your spot aganist the SB that you described, I'd either limp or fold. If I had to rank plays:

1. Limp or fold
2. Min raise with idea of folding if they are committed but MAYYYBE moving allin if SB isnt committed, but probably just folding.
4. 2.5x raise with idea of folding to committing raise
3. 3x raise with idea of folding to committing raise
4. allin
5. 3x raise with idea of moving allin against a committing raise.


Against typical unknown player the best play is almost surely to raise to around 2.5x the BB and simply fold to an allin.

But the key to the entire hand is that you want to avoid a big pot unless you have a monster hand. This is true no matter how much you feel like you are being abused or how loose the guy is going to be. You simply must avoid getting all the chips in without a huge edge and your play, from the start of the hand, should reflect this.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its definitely not hard to play this hand with position if he flat calls.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

well not shoving, but 3 betting. And i thought I can 4bet and he fold (if he made a standard reraise), but after the big reraise i was 90% sure he was calling my shove, but i new i crushed his range. I think part of my fault here, is my pride, which shouldn't be a factor, but i wasn't going too let him abuse me constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes your pride was a big weakness here. This isn't about being macho or having pride, this is about math. A9 is just about 60% against a random hand.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

curtains am i correct that you need approximately a little less than 73% equity to call?

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
curtains am i correct that you need approximately a little less than 73% equity to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno didnt do the math, that sounds a bit higher than I'd expect, and I don't know the prize structure, but I'm sure it's right.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
curtains am i correct that you need approximately a little less than 73% equity to call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno didnt do the math, that sounds a bit higher than I'd expect, and I don't know the prize structure, but I'm sure it's right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, 73% is about what my calculations show you would need, so you probably need TT-AA.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its definitely not hard to play this hand with position if he flat calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are at a big disadvantage due to stack sizes playing this postflop. Aside from him applying pressure, you just don't want to gamble for all your chips.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
shove is terrible, no question

stove any range into it, you will see

even if villian is shoving like 40% it is still probably bad, but i didnt check

play more sngs

[/ QUOTE ]

Ape is shoving like close to a 100% of hands

[/ QUOTE ]
Then why are you open raising?

[/ QUOTE ]

well not shoving, but 3 betting. And i thought I can 4bet and he fold (if he made a standard reraise), but after the big reraise i was 90% sure he was calling my shove, but i new i crushed his range. I think part of my fault here, is my pride, which shouldn't be a factor, but i wasn't going too let him abuse me constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

He should be abusing you constantly. The way to deal with that is to play supersolid and passively preflop and postflop. Maybe he will abuse too much and lose a chunk of chips bluffing or overplaying.

Also, your strategy should be to try to bust the short stack and let ape bust the shortstack.

Don't get into a macho thing. Just play a strategy suitable for the situation.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont think studying it very detailed give a huge edge by any means over someone that have studied it a bit and understands it pretty well.

however, a person having a good understanding on it and understand in a good way how big the gap for calling (or pushing without FE) or pushing really can become bec of ICM, have a huge edge over someone that has no clue of it but are good in other means.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are in a bad situation against an aggressive big stack. If you raise 3xBB, villain is probably not standard reraising and letting you push. He probably reraises big or flat calls. It is hard to play this hand postflop against the big stack. Also, when villain standard reraises and you 4-bet, you are often called.

A raise to 2.3xBB is much better, as it makes it harder for ape to commit to go allin, and it is easier to fold if you want to when ape reraises. It still pretty well commits you against the short situation.

In this situation, you might just open fold. You need to play overly solidly and conservative in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its definitely not hard to play this hand with position if he flat calls.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are at a big disadvantage due to stack sizes playing this postflop. Aside from him applying pressure, you just don't want to gamble for all your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...pot is still pretty small, we have position and can use pot control if it makes sense.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

I think mpst MTTers don't really know much about ICM at all. They read harrington and he says it's usually good to just play to win so they do that. The better players (including lots of the good posters here) have some intuitive idea about when they have to adjust as seen in the replies to an extreme situation like this post. And this is really just a small variation on an extremely standard STT situation. What about when there are 5 people or 6 players left, how much should varying stack sizes effect the way you play? There's a big differnece between having some intuitive idea you can't call off your stack light here and knowing you need at least 73% equity. I had no idea the nubmer was that high and judging from the replies a lrage % of the forum didn't either.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

Couple thoughts on this

1)Whatever the calculation suggests (apparently 73%) I would say call a bit looser. Apestyles is gonna keep [censored] with you, and he can keep shorty on life support for a while.

2)My first thought was consider doing something else PF (openlimping/minraising/etc)

3) I dislike Ape's repop as well. Him getting called by A9o (or 77 or AJo etc) is a huge disaster. I think its a really bad spot to raise to 72 if you are calling a shove... giving him the idea of fold equity will just make him shove a bit more IMO. Way more likely to 4B allin with the illusion of fold equity than to call.

For repopping to better than folding dude has to fold a reallyyyy high % of the time.

4)Were the real payouts posted? I just skimmed this thread but didn't see it.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

[ QUOTE ]
one semi-related thing: am I the only person that thinks that someone who carefully studied ICM as it relates specifically to final tables of MTTs would have a huge edge on most people?

[/ QUOTE ]

How often do you get to big final tables? At them, how often do you have super marginal spots? If good players [censored]-up, I think it's too often just having the wrong game-plan (3betting real wide in a spot were you should be avoiding gambles for instance).

I doubt being an ICM super-expert would effect you all that much. I think being ridiculous at correct calling ranges (pokerstove knowledge+ability to divide) would be more helpful.

That said I'm assuming good players have at least some idea maybe from SNG experience or doing calcs by hand while up-an-coming or whatever.

Re: FT Hand against Apestyles (is this -$ev)
 

heh, I dont like my play very much either to be honest... But its so fun abusing bubbles, + on my 8th o9th belvedere and pineapple juice. I assumed he was familiar with icm and would need 99 or TT plus to call. Even with that assumption the risk vs. reward just isnt there. Basically shoving 50 bbs for 5 with a random hand is a little iffy. Its one of those wierd spots where both players in the hand are -ev.

If he had limped button I probably wouldnt have even completed (thats how bad my hand was).