Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Villain is slammeri - one of the toughest players on the ongame network IMO. He is loose and aggro. I have to raise this in the hopes he has a 4 and wants to 3bet flop, right? Flat-calling gives away my hand to an extent and allows him a free shot at a 2-outer? When we've been tangling in the last few days I've been more aggro by far and have mostly got it in bad, as a result, and sucked out.

Poker Room skin
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $5/$5
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1.077.90
CO: $680.20
hero: $1.745
SB: $420.20
BB: $659

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $20</font>, CO folds, hero calls, 2 folds.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($50, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $50</font>, <font color="#cc0000">hero raises to $150</font>, UTG folds.
Uncalled bets: $100 returned to hero.

Results:
Final pot: $150

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

i think you did the right thing.......if you also raise in those spots with air.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

I should add that villain c-bets a high %, and can two or even three-barrel but doesn't do it at all regularly.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I should add that villain c-bets a high %, and can two or even three-barrel but doesn't do it at all regularly.

[/ QUOTE ]

even so, you smooth call and the turn is an ace, king or queen and then you might find yourself in a bind.......who knows.

i know, its a results oriented answer but i'll take those uncontested pots all day and also........ive found that i win big pots by playing my hands straight forward. tricky plays, as mike caro says, cost you money in the long run.

you have the nuts.......raise and who knows what might happen.

usually only good things.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

I was hoping for something a little less airey! Like, what things should come into consideration when I decide what line I should take, how would I play A4xx in slammeri's shoes, the extra consideration of implied reverse tilt odds should he hit a 2/4-outer and stack me, should I use my position and let him hit an inferior hand (assuming he's playing a hand with an underpair in it), how the depth of stack affects the play, etc etc.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

jesus, you think of all those things when you play? i just raise:)

i like your description of reverse implied tilt. i thought of that also, thats why i like the raise, just in case he does call and hits a 2 outer, it doesnt put you on tilt because you know you did everything possibly right to win the hand.

look, the main reason i like the raise is because good players try to represent paired boards. my first response was i liked your play if you also make those raises with air. if you do make those raises with air on paired boards, and your oponents know this, then your likelyhood of getting action increases........i dont know why i'm telling you this.......you already know.

i know your more correct than i am when you consider all the possibilities of calling vs. this opponent but i like to keep my game simple and have my opponents react to me, not the other way around.

but thats just me.

RAISE

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Flat calling against a solid opponent gives much more info than raising IMO, especially if you aren't peeling the flop much. Raise and be happy when you get action because you have the flop totally crushed. He has to fire twice a high percentage of the time with air or w/e to make just calling the flop more profitable.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

yes, as long as u raise this type of board frequently with air its your best shot at stacking him if he holds that 4, hell he might make do something stupid with AA/KK

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

i know its great to know the flop before you 3 bet, but considering you style and the stacks being this deep i would have thought you might 3 bet pre here? if it was an 8 instead of a 7 i think even i would 3 bet this deep :P

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

I raise this kind of flop very frequently with air, any 4 and the nut flush. Observant people then often get crazy and shove their AAxx and KKxx hands here.

I am currently in the office, otherwise I could post a few examples where decent nut-pendlers getting it in with KKxx+ Hands after beeing raised a few times before in the same session.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i know its great to know the flop before you 3 bet, but considering you style and the stacks being this deep i would have thought you might 3 bet pre here? if it was an 8 instead of a 7 i think even i would 3 bet this deep :P

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

So what was the major deciding factor in not 3bombing this preflop when you did so with a fairly similar hand in the other thread?

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Still trying to find the right pic on google to accompany my 'R U Serious?'

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i know its great to know the flop before you 3 bet, but considering you style and the stacks being this deep i would have thought you might 3 bet pre here? if it was an 8 instead of a 7 i think even i would 3 bet this deep :P

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

[/ QUOTE ]

i figured this might be your reasoning, but seeing as this is a tough opponent would 3 betting not simplify your decisions post flop to some degree?? if there is one thing i hate is being in a raised pot where your stacks are huge compared to a pot thats still worth winning

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Completely. Your play is totally the opposite of the other thread in which you reraised queens for 40% of your stack in what was likely going to be a 3-way pot when you had position. Here nothing is really all that different except you seem to feel your opponent is a better player than you.

In the other hand you reraise with a hand that isn't a favorite over much preflop, especially three ways. In this hand you chose to flat call when raising can help negate his edge against you postflop. Neither play makes sense in the context you gave.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Oh and...

[ QUOTE ]
This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

[/ QUOTE ]

.. is a pretty bad line of thinking. Most of the weak players will come in regardless so you're basically giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.

I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.

And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Raising this flop is fine.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.


[/ QUOTE ]

You chose to turn a hand you can play very profitably for one raise into a hand that you are going to press a very small edge at best with. By your logic if the flop had come differently and one of your opponents had you drawing dead they would have outplayed you. I'm all for pushing small edges when there are good reasons to. You haven't given any except that your queens are probably best preflop. Last time I checked 'best hand' does not equal favorite in this game.

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally counter-intuitive. Against weak players you should be willing to play relatively cheap pots preflop so you can realise your greater postflop edge later in the hand. Against strong players you want to get as much out of your positional advantage as possible by reraising preflop, If the weak players have hands they want to play in the blinds, awesome. If not you're not losing anything, especially since you are in bad position against the two blinds relative to the initial raiser. Unless you flop pretty well if either of the blinds call you're going to have a tough decision on a lot of flops when UTG leads out and you've got little fold equity with the two blinds acting after you, since the default donk move is to checkraise all hands they intend to play for stacks. Having the initiative is worth a huge amount in this game.

[ QUOTE ]

And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

[/ QUOTE ]

On this particular flop, sure. It's easy to raise with air when your opponent has to have a hand to play back at you with. What are you doing when the flop comes something thats actually scary for you, like it will most of the time?

My point is that there is a huge fundamental difference in your play of these two hands that can't be rationalised as 'my queens were probably best' or 'we had deep stacks and he's a solid player'. Obviously playing the same way in any two similar situations is not ideal, but when you make those plays for the wrong reasons it becomes a leak.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Dude. In the other thread, my queens rated to be good, and as you saw I can still outplay my opponents on the flop. I can get enough of my stack in with a good enough hand there to let the rest of the hand play itself out and take up a small but significant edge.


[/ QUOTE ]

You chose to turn a hand you can play very profitably for one raise into a hand that you are going to press a very small edge at best with. By your logic if the flop had come differently and one of your opponents had you drawing dead they would have outplayed you. I'm all for pushing small edges when there are good reasons to. You haven't given any except that your queens are probably best preflop. Last time I checked 'best hand' does not equal favorite in this game.

[ QUOTE ]
I certainly don't think slammeri is a better player than me. Nevertheless, he's strong. My line of thinking that you've just quoted is completely standard. It's pretty basic poker, in fact. It doesn't work all the time in omaha because it's much easier to find a hand to overcall with OOP than in holdem, but I don't want to give a bad player an excuse to fold any hand. Like I said, why on earth would I want to isolate a good player and force out the weak players? If it was a weak or average player coming in for a raise and I've got average or good players behind me, I'm 3betting basically any hand I'm willing to play at this stack depth.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is totally counter-intuitive. Against weak players you should be willing to play relatively cheap pots preflop so you can realise your greater postflop edge later in the hand. Against strong players you want to get as much out of your positional advantage as possible by reraising preflop, If the weak players have hands they want to play in the blinds, awesome. If not you're not losing anything, especially since you are in bad position against the two blinds relative to the initial raiser. Unless you flop pretty well if either of the blinds call you're going to have a tough decision on a lot of flops when UTG leads out and you've got little fold equity with the two blinds acting after you, since the default donk move is to checkraise all hands they intend to play for stacks. Having the initiative is worth a huge amount in this game.

[ QUOTE ]

And I'm certainly not 'giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.' I'm raising him with air on this flop a good % of the time, as I've already said.

[/ QUOTE ]

On this particular flop, sure. It's easy to raise with air when your opponent has to have a hand to play back at you with. What are you doing when the flop comes something thats actually scary for you, like it will most of the time?

My point is that there is a huge fundamental difference in your play of these two hands that can't be rationalised as 'my queens were probably best' or 'we had deep stacks and he's a solid player'. Obviously playing the same way in any two similar situations is not ideal, but when you make those plays for the wrong reasons it becomes a leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think rempel is gOOt.........almost better than me

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and...

[ QUOTE ]
This would be a lovely hand to 3bet, but I wouldn't 3bet this guy in this spot with AAKKds or 89TJds, or any hand to be honest - I'm not trying to isolate the good players and force out the weak players, I want the weak players to come in for a discount!

[/ QUOTE ]

.. is a pretty bad line of thinking. Most of the weak players will come in regardless so you're basically giving up before the hand even started unless you flop big.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is one of the most important things linked to any form of poker.

you MUST 3 bet with those type of hands. it helps define your hand and increase the percentages of your hand holding up and ultimately adds value to the hand.

its kind of like having a perfect diamond and then selling it for under market value. i call this "disrespecting monster hands"

to not 3 bet with these hands is absolute disaster.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

I don't know what to say, man, other than that my preflop game is better than yours.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to say, man, other than that my preflop game is better than yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i wouldnt deny that all aspects of your game is better than mine........

but i cant see how smooth calling raises with monster hands are ever a good idea.

i have hand histories of my plo game on ftp. its just sitting there. maybe i can send them to you, wazz, and you can tell me about the holes in my game.

i would certainly like to know where i stand when it comes to plo. if you would be interested in taking a look, i would greatly appreciate it.

is there a way that you could take my hand histories and run them through your poker tracker?

thanks.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Rempel,

I agree with what you are saying about the other QQ hand, which I really didn't like at all. Although I would reraise with this particular QQ hand vs *everyone* I don't think just calling is that bad a play. The reasoning behind just calling is the bad thing.

Considering <font color="green">*****</font> was being backed only a month or so ago, unless he found $50,000 on the floor, he is either rushing, or has discovered my old friend, winner's tilt. I suspect that explains more than some of this stuff.

gl

bdd

<font color="green">No names, please. Write somebody a private message if you have a suggestion for them, please.
.
Buzz</font>

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rempel,

I agree with what you are saying about the other QQ hand, which I really didn't like at all. Although I would reraise with this particular QQ hand vs *everyone* I don't think just calling is that bad a play. The reasoning behind just calling is the bad thing.

Considering <font color="green">*****</font> was being backed only a month or so ago, unless he found $50,000 on the floor, he is either rushing, or has discovered my old friend, winner's tilt. I suspect that explains more than some of this stuff.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the reason he needed backing the last time. Playing above his roll and refusing to show good bankroll management.
He may not necessarily lose his money this time, but he is giving himself the best possible chance to do so.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against weak players you should be willing to play relatively cheap pots preflop so you can realise your greater postflop edge later in the hand. Against strong players you want to get as much out of your positional advantage as possible by reraising preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just silly.

Its good to 3bet to isolate weak/bad players.
Its not "increasing your positional advantage" when you reraise preflop.
By 3betting a good opponent when weak players are yet to act behind you effectively just shut everyone out of the pot except the initial raiser, unless someone wakes up with even better hand. Which is bad.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rempel,

I agree with what you are saying about the other QQ hand, which I really didn't like at all. Although I would reraise with this particular QQ hand vs *everyone* I don't think just calling is that bad a play. The reasoning behind just calling is the bad thing.

Considering <font color="green">*****</font> was being backed only a month or so ago, unless he found $50,000 on the floor, he is either rushing, or has discovered my old friend, winner's tilt. I suspect that explains more than some of this stuff.

gl

bdd

<font color="green">No names, please. Write somebody a private message if you have a suggestion for them, please.
.
Buzz</font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Sir, I've heard via Dave Gardner that you are a knowledgeable man and one to be respected, and his opinion always goes in my book. However, in this situation, I can't just defer to yours. As I say again, the QQ reraise is mostly a function of the tables I'm playing and the idea that I can achieve a bigger edge given my exact stack size by jamming. It may not be correct, but as you saw I got a sizeable edge that I may not have been able to play with postflop. It somehow got two people to play massively badly against me and stack sizes postflop were perfect to take advantage of it. The lack of a 3bet here is only a function of 'I don't want to discourage an overlay from the bad players so that I can get it HU in a reraised pot, with position or not, with a good player.' I don't see what's so hard to understand about that logic; it's not my own, in any case, I believe it's Caro's. What do I gain by a 3-bet? It tells him 'I have a nice hand' while all I know about his is that he was willing to raise pre and call a reraise, which given how deep we are he might do with his whole raising range. I don't gain bupkes other than a bigger pot in position, which I agree is worth something, but perhaps lose a small amount by making a raise which is in accordance with the fact that I have a very playable big pair and have no info on his hand.

I may well be 'rushing', and I'm sure there is a small part of 'winner's tilt', but my preflop game is still one of the best around, not that that counts towards a whole hell of a lot, and I really don't appreciate you talking about me in my own thread without addressing me directly. In any case, my own handle on how I'm playing is accurate enough that I don't need criticism from you that is based on two hand histories, when I don't even think you're right.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

And how the hell do any of you know or purport to know what my roll is? Would it be any matter to you if I had just found $50k on the floor? Do I need 100 buyins at my level to be unlikely to go broke? LOL

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Wazz,

I'm not quite sure how you connected me to Dave G, but say hi to him for me. I played him every week probably for the best part of a decade.

I wasn't too happy with the tone of the post I made. Unfortunately, I either tend to write very long winded, i.e. blog and Card Player, or very short to the point of rude. And I did come over as a bit of a [censored]. So for that I apologise. I don't come here to deliberately antagonise.

As to the hands in question, I did say that I thought the actually hand here was played okay. As to the other, well, I still think you are being too results orientated. If you had a smaller stack fine, but it was just too large and you were fortunate to be so dominant on the flop.

The bankroll stuff is dependent on whether you are a pro or not. If you are, then I would say 40-50k is what is required to play $2-5 PLO for sure. The "winners tilt" thing was a jibe at myself. I forget that most here weren't around 2 years ago when I set fire to 50k in two months, when 5-10 and the new 10-20 were the biggest games online. Also, you mentioned the bankroll/backing stuff yourself. If you don't want people to speculate then you shouldn't really put that stuff up. I've been effectively poker busto for a chunk of time now, simply because I pissed away the very reasonable amounts I won last year in the real world. So I know what its like scrabbling around. Anyway, good luck and all the best.

Dave

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

[ QUOTE ]

Although I would reraise with this particular QQ hand vs *everyone* I don't think just calling is that bad a play.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow I certainly wouldn't reraise here against everyone, far from it, and I expected you to be nittier than me in this spot.

Re: Flopped nut full vs tough villain, deep ($5/5)
 

Of course there are some exceptions. I was just being brief again. Stack size would make a real difference. And I probably would not raise someone who was a complete nit or a complete looney tune. And sometimes I just wouldn't reraise because I didnt feel like it. The point I guess I was making badly was that it wouldn't be just because I thought a player was on some spectrum of good. In fact good players are the types I would be more likely to reraise.

gl

bdd