The Myth of Meaning
 

Of all the parts of theistic claims that baffle me, the concept that believing I am the love toy of a powerful being and somehow that adds "meaning" to my life is one of the tougher. Since we don't have evidence of that being the case, that seems the correct way to state it, but I'd go even farther.
If there were 100% proof that baptists, say, are correct, I cannot see how knowing I am the love toy of an powerful being adds meaning.
If being loved adds meaning, then I'm wallowing in it already. Does being loved by a president add 'more' meaning. By Alexander the Great? By Allah or Jehovah?
Surely it is the 'being' loved that is what they are talking about, not just the timeline ( or we are just talking about a fear of death). Theists seem to agree with that, "what matters is that god loves you".

Theist or atheist thoughts on this claim would be helpful. I'm not trying to convert, just to get a better view.

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Yeah... I don't really get it either. My take is that followers can feel better about the hardships of this life if they know that, by being a good follower, they will have a have a longer and nicer afterlife. The 'meaning' of this life is fullfilling the requirements to get into 1st class afterlife.

I think its just a human intellectual desire to try to ascribe meaning to things. That, of course, doesn't mean things actually have to have a deep meaning. But by creating a meaning, no matter how arbitrary, it makes some feel better.

Christianity seems quite simple-- it appeals to the selfish side of everyone. Describe life as an insignicant period in a longer 'spiritual' life. Define a set of rules that, if followed, means your infinite life will be spent in the clouds strumming harps and being super happy (to what purpose and for what meaning, I doubt anyone concerns themselves with that much)... break the rules and you're tormented for eternity.

Its a great method of social control as well as it gives people structure. I suspect we can all agree that structure and goals make our lives better. Religion fills in those blanks. It fills in the void for those looking for meaning.

The next question might be... what is the meaning of the afterlife?

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah... I don't really get it either.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's encouraging.
I'm used to the theist claim, THAT it adds meaning, and for the sake of this thread I'm taking that as a premise. So it's the "how does it" that I'd like to hear about.

Since none of the theists are dashing in saying, "well jeez luckyme, it's a simple concept .. yadda, yadda." gives me hope that it isn't a simple concept and there still are only 20M or so earthlings smarter than I am.

You mention the afterlife issue and at this stage that's the aspect that I tie it to ( fear of death), which at least gives a underlying psychological reason for their general beliefs. But one can be theist ( not american likely) and not believe in an afterlife, at least there seems no conflict.

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Can't speak for other theistic groups but a lot of Christians see themselves as the "children of god" not as a "love toy". Children have to be trained and taught right from wrong and reminded constantly. Children also like to throw tantrums and rebel against authority. But if you can approach God like a child you can accept God more easily since your mind hasn't been filled with preconceived notions, prejudices and biases.

"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." John 1:1:10


1 John 3
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

4Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Love one another
11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can't speak for other theistic groups but a lot of Christians see themselves as the "children of god" not as a "love toy".

[/ QUOTE ]

I granted that in the OP ( call it what you want).
There seems no conflict to accepting/understanding one is a 'child of god' yet it adds no meaning, just another fact.
Let's say I wake up in a field with amnesia. Caretakers tell me ...
"That earthworm loves you."
hrmmmph.
"that sparrow loves you"
hi, pretty bird.
"Sally loves you."
Walhhl, she's purdy.
"Your mother loves you"
mom? mom? is that you.
"President Bush loves you"
hail to the chief.
"America loves you."
Oh, say, can...
"All the heads of state love you"
ok, travel,travel.
"god loves you"
ok, uh, ok, I guess.
that's help in the future no doubt.
"john the butcher loves you"
hey, now yer talkin

Iow, you haven't answered the question, just repeated it, but thanks for at least trying.

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
the concept that believing I am the love toy of a powerful being and somehow that adds "meaning" to my life is one of the tougher

[/ QUOTE ]
Suppose that you did in fact believe in god. Would it not bring you comfort to know that God loves you? Would it not influence you to be loyal to a God that loves you in somewhat the same manner that you are loyal to your parents? Assuming they love you and you love them back. We humans are social animals and have needs. It can be agrued that "love", however you define it, is one of those needs.

Religion does not say that you are a "love toy" of God just as you are not a "love toy" of your parents. Most just say that God loves you. They do not give a reason other than that you are his child.

Have you never asked yourself "Why am I here"? Religion attempts to answer that question by claiming that there is an almighty creator that made you. Red Skelton, an old time famous comedian used to do skit around Christmas time about a Pine Tree that comes to life and ask the question "What is my purpose?" He finally decides that his purpose was to help people celebrate their god at Chritmas Time when he decorated and placed in the living room of a loving chritian family at christmas. The movie "Becket" with Richard Burton is about a callous man that unknowingly seeks meaning to his life and finds it in God when he is accidently thrust into the position of Archbishop of Cantebury by his friend the King of England. Man seeks meaning to his life. Being loved by an all powerful loving God for "His" own reasons can be a comforting and meanigful thought for some. For some "meaning" is not a myth.

pokervintage

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Splendor's quotes explain it. "God loves you" simply means that God watches over you like a parent does for a child. He will help us in our life on earth and give us a chance at heaven. Believing that that helps prevent despair when things go wrong for us. It will keep us from going on tilt whe we hit a downswing. How else can you explain Jerry Yang winning $8m? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Disclaimer. I do not adhere to any Christian religion.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

There is a neurological basis for this. Our minds are predisposed to See connections between things. There is a specific module of the brain responsible for this. In paranoid schizophrenics it's overactive, and their paranoia comes from seeing negative connections between things that are unrelated. In manic individuals it's also overactive and they tend to see positive omens everywhere and believe that the universe has a plan involving them.

If the area is underactive, however, the result is usually depression. For some reason if we are not continually drawing connections and finding reasons for things then we seem to become unhappy.

For religious people finding meaning is easy. They can always pull out the 'god has a plan' or 'it's god's will' reasons. So it makes sense that religion makes their lives seem meaningful.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Naw, love isn't some ultimate meaning of life. It's nice and sweet, and it can make us happy and on top of the world - and there is no reason not to seek it.

But life isn't some hollywood chick flick where the world is pink and right when love prevails in the end, and end titles come up and they all live happily ever after.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Believing that that helps prevent despair when things go wrong for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not the believing I am trying to get at because believing anything does not make it a fact.
I'm trying to delve into the factual claim by theists that I really don't get. If there were conclusive evidence ( so no reliance of 'belief' in the theistic sense) that god did in fact love me .. I am granting this in the OP
HOW does that add meaning?
Sure it might give we a warm-fuzzy, like when mommy tapes my knee and hugs me, but if that doesn't add meaning then how does having god tape both my knees and a hug and kiss once a week for a long time add meaning.

The only sense I can make out of it is the 'meaning' is something I put into the situation. A sociopath wouldn't get the meaning from the relationships I do, but it's me that gives them meaning. Finding out my stalker loves me or my kidnapper who's holding me for his pleasure loves me doesn't "add meaning".

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
that god did in fact love me .. I am granting this in the OP
HOW does that add meaning?


[/ QUOTE ]

Religions, most, claim that God loves you. That he put you here for his purpose. They do not claim they know that purpose. They claim that just the fact that you were put here for his purpose gives your life meaning. That meaning being God is usuing you for his purpose whatever it might be. For a person that seeks but cannot find a reason for his own existence, this thought that God loves you and is usuing you can be comforting and give your life meaning.

pokervintage

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
They claim that just the fact that you were put here for his purpose gives your life meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see how that adds meaning for him, he's having fun doing his thing.
How finding out I'm here to 'serve/roleplay/entertain/whatever' at the pleasure of some president, mad-scientist or god adds meaning for me is the baffling part. How powerful does the controller have to be before they can be considered to have added meaning, if mommy's love doesn't do it? Could a god that can't go backwards in time add meaning? Could One that can't save or drown little kids at will add meaning?
Is it really some form of "ohhhhhhwww, you're one powerful sob and you love me... well, whew, that adds meaning". Rather like the attraction of some women to powerful older men ( but, again, even there the 'meaning' is coming from the woman).

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

People need to feel important, even though the vast majority are really insignificant (including me). People who can't overcome this compulsion and be content with reality need an outlet for it. Having an omnipotent imaginary friend is good enough for some of them. Others have a stronger compulsion or need to see tangible evidence of their importance. Some try methods of social dominance (fancy car, etc.), some attach themselves fervently to causes or groups (religious and nonreligious), and some are physically abusive for fun.

If you don't have a serious disconnect between your perception of your importance and your perception of what it should be, then fixing it holds almost no meaning for you.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

It's not just the love that adds meaning. Its that a loving god put you here for some greater purpose than you can understand is what adds meaning. "God has his reasons" is the serve all religous arguement.

pokervintage

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's not just the love that adds meaning. Its that a loving god put you here for some greater purpose than you can understand is what adds meaning. "God has his reasons" is the serve all religous arguement.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if I understood the equivalence of 'meaning' and 'purpose' ( which I don't equate), arriving at -
"it has a meaning/purpose that you can't understand" hardly seems to 'add meaning' to my life.
Rather it seems to take it away. I'm sailing along, trying to live a good life ( even many meanings of that), then they tell me, "Nope, none of that counts, but you'll be happy to know that there is this entity that set you up in this scenario, knows how it's going to turn out oh, and he loves you, but not in a stalker/kidnapper sort of way ...and there you have it, now you have meaning."
Whaaa?

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

"Its a great method of social control as well as it gives people structure. I suspect we can all agree that structure and goals make our lives better. Religion fills in those blanks. It fills in the void for those looking for meaning."

Can't help but think Lenin, Stalin and Hitler would be the first to agree with you here...If you stamp out Churches you can create a vacuum of power and just about anything could fill it...This is sort of similar to a coup d'etat...

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

It's more like if you stamp out rational thought so people can't understand the world or even how to try to understand the world, you create a power vacuum for anybody with an explanation people will accept, and supernatural nonsense spun the right way filled it.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didnt I think of that? echo..echo..echo..

pokervintage.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how that would help since the OP question is "HOW does knowing there is a god adds meaning to my life?" ( the meaning I witness in life is meaningless they tell me) which is a fact statement by theists which I am not disputing and I'm trying grasp what they mean.

If other entities loving me doesn't add meaning ( their claim) then why does this one big control freak loving me add meaning? That It has a purpose for me doesn't add purpose at my level... especially since I'm apparently incapable of understanding his purpose.
( I'm not equating purpose and meaning, it's just that they are sometime put together like that .. IT's purpose for me adds meaing for me.)

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Churches, bibles, crosses - I'm fairly certain most of them fall under the false idols category anyway.

Seriously, does it take an atheist to see that most christians worship these _things_ more than they worship god these days?

The bible is seen as near infallible, when its meaning can mean different things in different translations. The cross is used as a symbol that people rever and worship and the rituals taking place in churches take presedence over many people's worship of their god.

I'm no theist, but atleast in the bible stories Jesus and his followers travelled the lands, discussed with scholars, debated customs and practices in accordance with their belief and helped people they met. They didn't sit around with a book and quote it religiously every time they encountered some resistance - and religion wasn't something they just happened to do every sunday either.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

I agree. A lot of your sociopaths seem to exhibit disconnects from people/animals. Showing emotional support or love has always been integral to building individuals and character. Hitler and Stalin were both treated harshly by their fathers.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're under the radar.
I'm trying to deal with the 'no real scotsman' statement by theists " the only REAL meaning comes from god loving you" or some such.
If they are conceding that meaning in life comes from other sources, np, and who needs It then.
How does all the meaningless things that give meaning to my life get erased when I get message, " I am the great and powerful Oz, I have built you and set you on a mission, I can't tell you what it is, but I love you .... here's two extra helping of REAL meaning to last you til dinner".
again, there are many christian versions of god, for example, some say he can't do logically impossible things, others say he can. Could either of those gods add meaning? What limitations on a god would still make him powerful enough to add meaning?
( I'm using that approach to see if there is a trigger level where 'presto' meaning is added because you are the love child of a sufficiently powerful overlord).

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

I don't see this tame_deuces...Christianity is a lot less ritualistic than other religions...Christians are required to worship once a week...I've never met anyone that worshipped the object of the cross...they use the word "cross" to symbolically represent what Christ did for us...Jesus was the Living Word hence he never had to quote a bible verse, but that doesn't mean his followers don't need to be intimately concerned with the words of the bible...and since a lot of people are trying to live in truth and spirit how would you know if they are doing that since you can't be around them 24/7...The Apostles went into communities throughout the ancient world to spread the Gospel it doesn't mean everyone who accepted Christianity was moved by the Spirit to hit the road like Jesus, in fact, quite a few of the early Christians were persecuted with the Roman Christians staying down in the Catacombs for quite some time...but this may have varied from region to region for different communities of Christians...

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see this tame_deuces...Christianity is a lot less ritualistic than other religions...C

[/ QUOTE ]

and this adds meaning to my life, how?

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Its a great method of social control as well as it gives people structure. I suspect we can all agree that structure and goals make our lives better. Religion fills in those blanks. It fills in the void for those looking for meaning."

Can't help but think Lenin, Stalin and Hitler would be the first to agree with you here...

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Hitler used Religion to control the masses as many have done throughout history. Its a great tool to control man.

[ QUOTE ]
If you stamp out Churches you can create a vacuum of power and just about anything could fill it...

[/ QUOTE ] I believe Hitler didn't stamp out the churches, he simply used them.

This has happened throughout history and still happens today all over the place including our country. I believe a lot of Christians are feeling they egg in their face after being courted so vigorously by the Bush administration and then ignored. But that's a topic for another forum.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

I agree. A lot of your sociopaths seem to exhibit disconnects from people/animals. Showing emotional support or love has always been integral to building individuals and character. Hitler and Stalin and Jesus were all treated harshly by their fathers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Christianity is a lot less ritualistic than other religions...Christians are required to worship once a week...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's modern Christianity. It was too long ago when you were expected to worship many hours a week. Modern christians are much more lax then they used to be.

[ QUOTE ]
I've never met anyone that worshipped the object of the cross...they use the word "cross" to symbolically represent what Christ did for us...

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently you've never seen the hilarious footage of good Christians bawling on the steps of courthouses because they can't display their symbols of the 10 Commandments or similar religious symbols. I distinctly remember them crying and saying they were being "denied their God."

Hunt that footage down and you'll not only have a good laugh, but you'll see Christians who worship symbols.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

If you believe that believing that your are plaything of a powerful being gives your life meaning then it does.

It’s the individual that decides what gives their life meaning.

[ QUOTE ]
Since we don't have evidence of that being the case,

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone says belief in God gives there life meaning, then the only way it doesn’t is if they are lying.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe that believing that your are plaything of a powerful being gives your life meaning then it does.

It’s the individual that decides what gives their life meaning.

[ QUOTE ]
Since we don't have evidence of that being the case,

[/ QUOTE ]

If someone says belief in God gives there life meaning, then the only way it doesn’t is if they are lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Np with your points, that's essentially my view of it. Theists don't explain it that way, they don't say the 'meaning' comes from them, they claim it comes from god.
I can't get it to work with any of the approaches I've noted in this thread.
Iow, they claim the meaning comes from god's doing his thing on you, not from your view of him doing it ( with brings it in line with any random wednesdays 'meanings'.
None have come forward with even a hint of how this comes about, so I take it is just the hollow claim that it sounded like originally.

luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Nope, none of that counts, but you'll be happy to know that there is this entity that set you up in this scenario, knows how it's going to turn out oh, and he loves you, but not in a stalker/kidnapper sort of way ...and there you have it, now you have meaning."


[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps we can approach this in a differnt manner. Do you believe that there is such a thing as "love"? It has been described in various manner by many but really never satisfactorily to all. I believe that is because "love" is a personal thing and there is no tangible way to measure it or its strength.

Well if you believe in love and I do. I feel that I've experienced it through my family but I'd rather not get into a discussion of just what love is or isn't. I just want to get an understanding that we are on the same page. If you do not believe in "love" nor have you ever experienced it you may not understand the power of love.

A parent would definetly understand love with regards to his/her child and he/she would understand how that love alone would add meaning or give meaning to their love. If that same parent then turned towards a God and believed that God's love for him was the same as the love that he/she felt for their own child it might add or give meaning to their own life just to know that they too are loved.

If you ask a parent why they brought a child into this world they too may not be able to give a definitve answer. So, why would you expect God to give one also.

They key to this whole dicussion is the way in which one views "love" and its power.

pokervintage.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

You may be looking for someone to defend this classic statement:
"Without a belief in God [and that he loves you], a person cannot find real meaning in life."

If so, I'm not surprised. It haunts this forum.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you believe that believing that your are plaything of a powerful being gives your life meaning then it does.

If someone says belief in God gives there life meaning, then the only way it doesn’t is if they are lying.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if the fact that your belief in god giving your life meaning depends on your belief being true, and it's false.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

Splendour, maybe not all christians I have met worship the cross but I'd say around most of them (counting only those who pay more than lip service and are religious more than one day a week) worship the bible, I I mean they _worship_ it. For many I think the bible means more to them than god does, and others seem to worship their churches. Look at the TV evangelists, it would seem many people are more into following them than they are about following god.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Its a great method of social control as well as it gives people structure. I suspect we can all agree that structure and goals make our lives better. Religion fills in those blanks. It fills in the void for those looking for meaning."

Can't help but think Lenin, Stalin and Hitler would be the first to agree with you here...If you stamp out Churches you can create a vacuum of power and just about anything could fill it...This is sort of similar to a coup d'etat...

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, honestly?? You're just going to throw a bunch of bad names by his quote to invalidate it?? That's your come back?? Wow, I mean, don't bother trying or anything...

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

You hit it spot on in your OP and responses...

God loving you ensures not only a better future and wonderful eternity, but it also means that there was in fact a reason for all the badness you've gone through, because that badness was part of some plan to make life (and afterlife) better for you (since he loves you). The "meaning" comes from knowing that this master plan exists and that it exists for you.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You have to tell us what you think adds meanng to your life. For many people "feeling loved" does add meaning.

I agree. A lot of your sociopaths seem to exhibit disconnects from people/animals. Showing emotional support or love has always been integral to building individuals and character. Hitler and Stalin and Jesus were all treated harshly by their fathers.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

First an aside - I dont accept the claim and dont think it is inherent in theism.

Nonetheless, I think the confusion comes from using meaning in two different contexts - meaning to you and "ultimate meaning" which is important to theists but nonexistent to most atheists. Irrespective of our position on the theism-atheism debate - we all create meaning for ourselves and our lives have some meaning by virtue of that. The point I think the meaning-loving theists are making is that if God exists he also creates meaning. This God-mandated meaning is what they refer to as the ultimate meaning and what they regard as significant on a cosmic scale. Their claim is that, all the atheists have is the subjective self-designated meaning. Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning.

An analogy that comes to mind is the meaning you get from reading a work of prose. You will read it and find meaning, I will find different meaning. The author intended their own meaning. The theist making the meaning argument you refer to would claim that atheism corresponds to a belief that the words are randomly selected and jumbled all over the page with no rhyme or reason - we then comb through and find our own meaning out of what words, phrases or sentnce fragments we find. The theist conception is that the words were chosen carefully by an intelligence who wanted to convey something. We still comb through, making our own meaning - but we have the possibility that we can discern the "true, intended" meaning, which is something extra on top of our insignificant, self-derived meaning.

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to address that by stating versions of - Finding out you are a galley slave in the largest ship captained by the most powerful king in history does not add meaning to your life, it's de-meaning.

That he loves you and will even save the odd red-headed girl in the school bus crash is merely his plan, his goals. Sure, you can agree to keep pulling on the oars at his direction but that seems like a pretty weird version of 'meaning'. It also dodges the issue completely.

People can get meaning out of a love for sausages, so we can't say god adds meaning by what we actually add by buying into his plot. That meaning then came from us ( as all meaning does) not from his.

A theist has to tell me HOW god imbues me with meaning by the mere fact that he loves me and has a major plot in mind with me in it. NOT by my reaction it ( else it's coming from me, as usual).

thanks for trying but no cigar, luckyme

Re: The Myth of Meaning
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theists have that, but also have the ability to work within god's plan and be a part of something bigger than them - to have their lives viewed as important by someone (ie God) who defines that overarching, cosmically significant meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to address that by stating versions of - Finding out you are a galley slave in the largest ship captained by the most powerful king in history does not add meaning to your life, it's de-meaning.

That he loves you and will even save the odd red-headed girl in the school bus crash is merely his plan, his goals. Sure, you can agree to keep pulling on the oars at his direction but that seems like a pretty weird version of 'meaning'. It also dodges the issue completely.

People can get meaning out of a love for sausages, so we can't say god adds meaning by what we actually add by buying into his plot. That meaning then came from us ( as all meaning does) not from his.

A theist has to tell me HOW god imbues me with meaning by the mere fact that he loves me and has a major plot in mind with me in it. NOT by my reaction it ( else it's coming from me, as usual).

thanks for trying but no cigar, luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]
I clearly didnt explain very well. I dont think the claim is that the meaning you ascribe to your life is increased by believing in god. I think the claim is that the total amount of meaning is increased (which they value and you may not).

In other words, there's the same amount of subjective meaning ascribed by atheists and theists, but if theists are right then there is another source of meaning - namely that ascribed by god. This meaning ascribed by god is what they refer to as absolute meaning (the claim being it is present if god exists, but there is no analogous source of meaning if he doesnt - just subjectively ascribed-by-us meaning).