Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Open raiser was moderately aggressive, flat caller is Thorladen. Is Thor's range JJ+/AK here or are we just stuck and gotta go?

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t75/t150
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4636
UTG+1: t3285
MP1: t6695
Hero: t3660
MP3: t3242
CO: t4165
Button: t11629
SB: t3485
BB: t8508

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to t450</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to t1350</font>, 2 folds, Button calls t1350 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t2025)</font>, 2 folds, MP1 calls t900 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t3375)</font>.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t4275, 3 players)
MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero?

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

I think we are supposed to check fold here. I mean once thor bets he has AK at worse and seeing free cards don't mean that much unless guys are calling three bets really light.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

wow gross. check fold i guess.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right?

I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right?

I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in

[/ QUOTE ]

Board: Ks Qs 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 07.500% 06.92% 00.58% 274 23.00 { AdKh }
Hand 1: 92.500% 91.92% 00.58% 3640 23.00 { KK+ }

O RLY.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

as,
given that its thor, your really think if he puts another cent in we have anything other than 2 outs at best, and are just as likely to be drawing dead to runner (as in i dont think we even chop all that often, since i think thor is way more likely to 4-bomb or fold it).

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right?

I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. I'd Shove.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys see we have 2k behind in a 4300 pot, right?

I cant imagine not having enough equity to get our stack in

[/ QUOTE ]

Board: Ks Qs 6c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 07.500% 06.92% 00.58% 274 23.00 { AdKh }
Hand 1: 92.500% 91.92% 00.58% 3640 23.00 { KK+ }

O RLY.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is his range

gobbo wins [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

why the hell wouldn't he just shove KK+ pf if we are really check/folding this flop. id just stick it in hoping he misclicked preflop

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misread the hand. We are the preflop reraiser.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Shove pre. If his range is JJ+, we have enough equity to shove. I'd shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misread the hand. We are the preflop reraiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm saying instead of 3betting and putting in 36% of our stack with AKo, just shove. The second and third sentences had to do with postflop, now I see where I failed to communicate clearly.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Todd,

Later positions i just jam pre.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

only hands we beat will fold to a bet imo
and thats JJ and maybe AQs
QQ KK AA has us beat and AK is just split pot

so i prefer a check/fold

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

this is a c/fold but I bet 99% of you shove everytime.

I am not part of the 1%

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Todd,

Later positions i just jam pre.

[/ QUOTE ]

Care to elaborate why? My initial thought was to shove pre. In this case I'd take the same action whether I was MP or LP. What's your action if someone behind is shoving over your 3-bet? I assume you make a difference here between shortstacks and bigstacks?

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

This is a pretty messed up hand IMO.

Rocco, if i have a couple hundred less or we're in a couple positions later i just jam. I guess vs an unknown in this spot i 3 bet a nominal amount since (i think) he'll give me a wider range than a jam.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

but he's still only gonna flat call you with pairs and you lose whether or not you hit. jam pre with your whole reraising range imo

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

i swear to god thorladen has put me in this exact spot twice in meaningul tournaments where ive had hands around the 50th percentile of my assumed "range" and i find myself wondering if he's a superuser, and at what point he is going to ask me to eat chinese food with ozzy.

seriously, how many more times am i going to raise 99 in MP to see thor call me OTB with stacksizes being 40bb and me feeling helpless to the god of bridge.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

now that ive put my anecdote out of the way,

as played i think the flop is a clear checkfold

however i typically just shove in 3600 in a tournament like the 2nd chance against an aggressive opener

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

i shove in the heat of the moment but this should be a checkfold. doubt he is even flatting JJ and QQ is close. This should be AA KK nearly always.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

This is not a c/f.

Shove

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya man, this is def no T7d, way out of yer area of expertise

w/ less than 1/2pot in your stack, i cannot see any other play than to shove.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is such a dirty spot, i have no idea. glad i could help.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya man, this is def no T7d, way out of yer area of expertise

w/ less than 1/2pot in your stack, i cannot see any other play than to shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a c/f.

Shove

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Thor's misclick frequency is really important in this hand's analysis.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thor's misclick frequency is really important in this hand's analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thor's at least 70 years old, maybe 80+, so it has to be pretty high.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

You just don't have enough of a stack to c/f.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

just shove. because you posted this hand thorladen is sitting there with AA but so be it. its a cooler.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

as played i can't fold, even though i hate it. too much in pot, i don't rly think he's flatting here with AK. i dunno, maybe i am wrong. he prob has AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ. so it's tough no matter what and i don't like any result.

how do you guys play this pre generally? i was in a similar spot in the super tuesday on stars with AK in 2nd pos v a somewhat loose opener w/ a similar stack size. i reraised like bond18 and got in most of my chips pre, only to shove on a random flop and get called by 99. i rly thought it was a horrendous play by the opener but probably just as bad on my part. in EP v a loose opener with around 22bb, is this a std shove?

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Man this hand is just gross. I thought about this the whole drive from la to vegas and I think against thor it's a c/f. Any random it's an obvious shove.

This spot just suuuuuuuuucks.

I agree though that all of us are jamming it in this spot if we ever find ourselves in it.

Devo

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Why is it that people are discounting AK from his range? I think he has AK often enough here that folding is a big mistake.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

flatting with AK? hard to believe. whats he callin to hit or somethin?

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

[ QUOTE ]
flatting with AK? hard to believe. whats he callin to hit or somethin?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think his flatting range is?

Thor isn't stupid and I doubt hes calling here with like KK to induce action, since your calling a shove if you have like AJ, and there are so many flops you can fold on. *Maybe* hes slowplaying AA to induce a 3way pot, but in general, I think hes probably calling here with hands that he thinks aren't monster favorites against your range.

I'd say he has JJ-22 here more than he has AA, I think QQ is a very likely hand, but at the same time, theres 3 combos of QQ and 6 of AK +misclicks etc.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

he has a pair that is jacks or better. sometimes tens. stack sizes make it a push/fold with AK (like you said, he's not stupid) and i think he's either flatting with JJ/QQ to see what develops with the original raiser or flatting KK+ to induce more action. I don't think its that bad of a play.

Also, I dont think we are getting the right odds vs QQ+ AK with AJ if he were to cold shove. It seems close tho.

Re: Second chance vs Thorladen
 

Why is noone suggesting a check and reeavluate? Is this terrible? It's not like he's 100% betting, plus we get to see MPs action before it's our turn.

In the heat, I probably shove though