11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

My question's on the second hand, first is just for history (but comment if you like). I usually play raise/fold on the button, but I'm trying out limping. I've been watching a lot of the successful high stakes guys (livb, toddytilt, and nordberg, mostly), and they seem to limp a lot, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

Hand #1

Blinds 15/30

Villain limps. I check T9o in the BB.

Flop comes QJ3 rainbow. I bet 40. He calls.

Turn is an 8, completing my straight. I bet 130, he thinks a bit and folds.


Hand #2

I limp J2o. Villain checks.

Flop is 34J rainbow. Villain pots for 60, I call.

Turn comes another J. Villain pots again for 180, I call.

River is a 9. Villain leads for 300, I call.


Anyone raise anywhere in hand #2?

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

I think I play the second hand the same. But, if you held something like T2o and flopped top pair, I would suggest raising the flop.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, if you held something like T2o and flopped top pair, I would suggest raising the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm new here. Why?

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

Doyle's hand ldo.

Seriously, though, that got me too. I'm not too sure I understand how T2 is that different.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Doyle's hand ldo.

Seriously, though, that got me too. I'm not too sure I understand how T2 is that different.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, a jack is a face card

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

1st hand i bet less on the turn, since he just called the flop he is not likely to have a strong hand and 8 is almost never improving his hand. i think he is more likely to call half pottish bet.

2nd hand i play the same except pf

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

Hand 1:
Bet less on the turn, you are almost potting it. You have a super strong hand here, milk him some more for value.

Hand 2:
I would play this exactly like you do here post flop (I fold it PF though). Against an unknown villain I would be fine with just winning what's in the pot now while also getting a look at villains holdings, rather than raise and most likely not get anymore value out of it, or being put all-in, knowing there is a good chance you might be outkicked, especially with the low 3 and 4 on the flop (meaning a split is not very likely).

Curious to hear if anyone raise at any point here though.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

I would probably call on the river as well, but...
assuming there was no obvious flush draw, would the villain really pot the turn with trips? The bet on the river seems strong, but on my aggressive days, I might min-raise on the river for value.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

Bet less on the turn on hand one. If he's raising a Q on the flop then you're not getting called on the turn.

Don't raise the turn or river after just calling the flop in hand one. I can see raising the turn with metagame but theres obv none of that here. And min raising the river is terrible- do you then fold to a push getting 5 to 1?

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

Well, I'm not sure it's correct, but here's my reasoning about raising T2o on a similar flop:

When I read the original hand, I was thinking about what situations would be a raise on this flop. I felt like overcards could make our hand very difficult to play. I mean if we call and an overcard hits on the turn, and our opponent leads again, do we fold? I know when an overcard hits on the turn is a spot where a lot of players double barrel. Now if we call his turn bet, what if another overcard hits on the river? Now I know we're not supposed to be that worried about overcards (since we're playing HU), but it could make our hand annoying to play.

Now I don't think we need to worry too much about overcards with a jack. but what if we held 82o and we had top pair? Would that be a raise? I figured it probably would be. But, at some point it changes from a raise to a call. 92o I think I'd raise. T2o? Well I wasn't really sure, but I think that one I'd raise and J2o I'd call.

Anyways, even if that's not the right way to think about it, that's an explanation of why I suggested raising T2o.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

Hey, I get attacked for limping with J3, but J2 is ok? Fine, I see how it is.

Seriously though, I think (now) if you are gonna play J2, you should raise it. Especially since it seems your opponent will lay down hands to continued aggression.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

^^^
this is true if you're in the mood for a lot of 2-barreling (which u may be - just saying)

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

I would like to talk about this second hand, but I want to make sure I have the logic of these responses.

OP limped a J2o and the BB checked. And you guys are afraid of over cards? In an unraised pot?

Shove the river.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

I don't know, a 5 is an overcard. What will we get called with if we shove?

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

i agree with one of the early responders about the first hand. there's no reason to bet that hard. chances are he whiffed the flop in a big way with some random two cards, or hit a weak second/third pair at best. that guy's not calling a big bet. alternatively, if he nailed the flop in a big way, having limped (although unlikely at the level) 33, JJ, AQ, AJ, QJ, etc... he's either not going anywhere or he's planning to play back at you on the turn/river. in either scenario, a big turn bet doesn't get you anywhere since the only thing is does is fold the hands you're furthest ahead of.

the second hand, if you're going to try limping J2, you have to make a play if you hit the J. your jack is weak and you're vulnerable to a lot of cards on the turn. you need to take control of this hand and use your position. with the preflop limp, and flop bet out of position, you could reasonably be up against anything from a better jack, to overs, to a mid pair, to a 56 str draw, to an overcard with a 3 or 4 paired. my guess is the only thing you're likely not up against is a monster like a set, two pair, or an overpair.

make it 180 here and consider folding to a raise. you still have a lot of chips if you fold to aggression here, and can find better spots to play for a big chunk of your stack.

if called, i again think you can fold to aggression (on a card other than a J) and not lose too much sleep over it, especially if it's an overcard. a small bet on a non-7 undercard could be called, i suppose, but then you're still in the same uneasy spot with a lot of cards to scare you on the river.

if called, AND with the J on the turn, are you willing to put your stack on the line without a kicker? since you don't have any real history on this player, there's no way to know if they'd take a real shot at it with an unimproved mid pair or they're the type that would be passive to the second jack. The first hand doesn't help you much here since it's so likely he had complete trash when he folded to your overbet.

My turn/river line on the second hand might be passive, but i think that hand needs to be won or folded on the flop if you play it at all. This hand is a great example of why limping really iffy hands is generally advised against, since it just puts you into these very strange situations that feel horrible to fold, but at the same time don't make you feel confident that you're completely ahead. Assuming you're a better player than the villain, you can probably fold this one if you don't take it down on the flop with a raise, and still have more than enough chips to play a solid game and take him down later on.

Re: 11 NLTRN - First two hands, fairly simple.
 

somekid, devin, and whoever else suggested raising the flop:

Are you saying to raise the flop to get information and avoid suckouts? Considering that my hand is probably just above the median of my opponent's range, so he's never folding better and rarely calling worse, how much value do you think we get when a) we raise, or b) we just call? In all honesty, I don't really know, but it surprised me that you guys were more focused on protecting our hand than getting the most value out of it.