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-   -   Two interesting hands from today's $2500 @ Bellagio (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=557450)

Clayton 11-29-2007 07:02 PM

Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1: Mys tack is 5600 or so, villain has 5k to start. 50/100 blinds.

Heros image is nitty and taggish with only one hand shown down, a 3bet in position with jacks that checked three streets on a AA655 board.

Villains image is also kinda nitty, but hes asian. I say "but" because people insist on saying asians will be more aggro and maybe spewy than their occidental counterparts. He has had one hand of note that did not get shown down where he flatcalled an EP raise from middle position, called a flop continuation bet in a multiway spot on a J9x board, threeway on a blank turn and they both checked to him and he potted and they folded. Thats all I have on him.

Anyways I open XX in the cutoff to 300, villain defends his BB.

Flop comes Ad Tx 3x. He checks and I check behind

Turn is the 8d, now a flushdraw. He checks, I bet 350 and he shoves for 4600 total rather quickly, placing his hand around his one stack of chips and placing it inside the line*.

What is your minimum hand to call with here?

----------------------------

Hand 2

Villain is 2 to my right and originally seemed like a live donk, but then he made a good laydown with trips in a multiway pot. Flop 663, villain checks BB bets, thayer raises, villain flatcalls, BB makes a smallish reraise, thayer shoves, villain folds a six, BB folds jacks lol.

Then he said out loud how he had read shannon shorrs blog (shannon was @ the table) and he knew who thayer was. Combined this with the fact he looks 23 or so and I assume now hes a good player. His attempt to steal blinds seems really high, and in the last orbit or so my image is getting a lot more aggressive. He made it 300 OTB, weak player in SB called and I made it 1300 and they both folded. Then I had my JJ hand, then *hand 1* and then 2 hands later we're at hand 2.

My image now may be more erratic, but I'd like to think still solid since I havent shown down a weak holding yet.

Folds to villain in MP who makes it 300, and I have TT in the hijack with 4800 effective. I think I have a lot of options here, but I elect to reraise to 925 with the intentions of folding if he snapshoves, and stacking off if he tanks and shoves or if he makes a funny sized fourbet.

Also consider that there is 15 minutes left in the 50/100 level, and the next level is 100/200 where I would have 4k if I folded. Kinda bitchy structure at this venture.

So anyways, he makes it 2400 and I tank and stick it in. Thoughts?

ty in advance

Todd Terry 11-29-2007 07:24 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand #1 is fun, nice bet, sir. The worst hand I call with is 88, I'd fold 33 here. I'm a nit against massive overbets.

Hand #2 I don't like, I think a funny sized reraise is sooner strength than weakness, his range here has to be {QQ+, AK}, and I'd discount AK because I think he would just shove. I wrote this knowing the results.

Pudge714 11-29-2007 07:30 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1 is weird because a lot of really good hands aren't in my flop checking back range. A8 and T8 are both tough there and I don't know what to do.

Hand 2 given you have a nitty image I would probably flat the open and fold as played.

Paul Thomson 11-29-2007 07:31 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
hand 1: set of 3.

hand 2: kinda hate it. does he ever do this with 99? i don't know. i haven't played in tournaments forever.

Clayton 11-29-2007 08:16 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Its worth noting that in hand 2 he asked for a count and fiddled with his 500 dollar chips a few times.

Factoring that he is a thinking, prob online player, I figured it was AK a lot, but a range also including JJ+. But honestly it felt like AK 80% of the time just because he seemed like the exact player to think exactly on the 2nd level versus a thinking unknown and take the line with the most fold equity against a 1st level player with a hand better served to just shove.

I put myself in a nasty spot with the reraise, which is why I was curious who likes flatting preflop more. It was kinda hard because I felt like his preflop range with the raise was so high that not reraising was criminal. I hate full ring.

Clayton 11-29-2007 08:21 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
also in hand 1 I had A5spades, so obviously never calling ever however I will check back this flop with a lot of my strong hands on this kind of texture and the fact i raised from the cutoff and he defended. i cbet with a lower frequency than most good tournament players.

swede554 11-29-2007 08:37 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1: AT probably.
Hand 2: I'd flat the raise, unless you read him for being able to 4bet lightly. If that's not the case, and since if we get 4bet we won't really like it, given stacks I think flatting is much better since villain will mostly likely fold or shove if we 3bet.

timex 11-29-2007 09:14 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1: I think I call T8 fairly happily
Hand 2: I just call his raise, but given that I 3bet, I fold happily to his 4 bet

gobboboy 11-29-2007 09:38 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
I call A8 in the first hand and I call it pretty damn fast.

JSchnett 11-29-2007 11:16 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
I call A8 in hand 1
I flat hand 2 and fold as played.

Bond18 11-30-2007 03:07 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1: I insta get it in with A8, prolly get it in with A3, and try to look into his soul with T8.

Hand 2: I always flat here pre in live. I fold to his 4 bet pretty quick.

Clayton 11-30-2007 05:46 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Yeah this 2nd hand has taught me a very valuable lesson about live poker after talking it over with a bunch of people better than myself.

Worth noting that I found out afterwards that villain in hand 2 was in fact AMAK316, fwiw.

Ansky 11-30-2007 06:25 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
a8+

hand 2 seems horrible, just flat call this isnt 6max nl.

he never has 99 does he?

sledghammer 11-30-2007 06:50 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand One: any ace. There is nothing in his line to demonstrate strength (more to denote a strong draw), and our hand looks extremely weak.

hand two: ugly no matter what. If he is a thinking lag though, I guess fold, though I'd call in the moment. Ugh, not sure about that one.

MrTimCaum 11-30-2007 07:51 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hand One: any ace. There is nothing in his line to demonstrate strength (more to denote a strong draw), and our hand looks extremely weak.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is madness

PhatPots 11-30-2007 12:41 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 2 is fold. I think when he makes a committing bet like that, you are looking at a big pair. Either AA or KK. I would discount JJ-QQ and AK, because usually that will get shoved rather than 4-bet because ppl are afraid of overcards coming and not knowing WTF to do.

Clayton 11-30-2007 02:43 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
[ QUOTE ]


hand 2 seems horrible, just flat call this isnt 6max nl.

he never has 99 does he?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, this is a reader's digest version of what I did wrong. since people are raise/folding AQ and 99 in this spot my reraise sucks.

however in my JJ hand he called a rr oop without a pair leaving effective stacks of 4.4k with a pot of 2k. So I was lead to believe I was playing online'ish and he would 4bet wide and call oop wide.

alifeLesson 11-30-2007 03:42 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
AT in hand 1
fold as played in hand 2

ShannonShorr 11-30-2007 03:46 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Clayton,
As others have said about hand 2, I think it's criminal to get in for 48 BBs here with two tens with no antes even in the pot. I especially like flat calling pre here when you've already RRd the opponent twice in the tournament this early. Often times guys will call or shove out of spite, and it just makes for uncomfortable situations.

SS

amak316 12-01-2007 04:55 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
lol i play so well. Idk what got into me that day but def was playing like my C- game, that being said i wasnt ever really stealing the blinds, i got KQs, 88, 77 etc soooo many times that level, im actually generally a TAG, but def was playing poorly that tournament lol.

hand 2 i wouldnt have made the goofy raise if i knew you were an online guy, i wanted to make it seem like QQ+, but in reality im never jamming worse than 10s there.

the hand i played vs you with 44 when my implied odds vs your stack were like 7.5-1 was so bad and set hunting was like the worst possible solution and 4bet jamming was slightly better still largely -ev.

gl tommorow in the 5k clayton

ZeeJustin 12-01-2007 06:49 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
Hand 1: I think A8 and T8 are very likely hands for him. The fact that the ace is a diamond is very relevant as it decreases his semi-bluff percent, although hands like JTdd are still likely. 88 is a huge possibility. A bluff or weak semi bluff seems fairly unlikely given the player described, but not impossible. Flopped sets are possible too, but less likely than the other hands I've mentioned.

That being said, I call with A8 and A3, but probably fold T8, but do not hate a call with that hand. Anything worse I fold.

Usually players that overbet bluff make it obvious that they are complete clowns that will go broke soon before they overbet bluff, and this player does not seem like one of them.


Hand 2: Hate the reraise pre. I don't hate the 4 bet as much, but the way you described his actions really makes it sounds like he has JJ which makes me inclined to say fold as played. If you think it's unlikely the player in question would think that long with JJ, then I'm fine with the 4 bet, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

RockyElsom 12-01-2007 06:55 AM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
[ QUOTE ]

Usually players that overbet bluff make it obvious that they are complete clowns that will go broke soon before they overbet bluff, and this player does not seem like one of them.


[/ QUOTE ]

Great post.

Clayton 12-01-2007 02:57 PM

Re: Two interesting hands from today\'s $2500 @ Bellagio
 
thanks for the replies all, very helpful in my transitioning/adjusting to live play. quite frustrating that i'm finding myself in many new situations and i'm getting them wrong, but oh well.

results:
hand 1, I fold A5spades so it wasnt an interesting decision

hand 2, i shove and AMAK has ace king as I figured. however in the future in these spots I am probably coldcalling with my entire range and probably repopping with KK+ and air-type hands.


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