Open-limping?
 

I'd just like to hear peoples' thoughts on open-limping as it was something I took out of my game a while ago, but wondered if it has its merits at micros and small stakes.

Re: Open-limping?
 

It has merits in every FR game from every position.

Re: Open-limping?
 

Could you go into more detail please? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I appreciate it

Re: Open-limping?
 

The topic is so broad it's difficult to go into detail instead of just turning the question back to you. Why do you think open limping would not have merits?

Re: Open-limping?
 

I guess it's really a polarization issue. If you have a hand that you feel is worth investing in, why not raise and gain some FE on the flop? I understand the notion of limping behind people with hands that play better in multiway pots, but there's no guarantee of that if you're opening. Also, if you have a good hand/are in good position, wouldn't you want to start building the pot preflop?

Re: Open-limping?
 

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The topic is so broad it's difficult to go into detail instead of just turning the question back to you. Why do you think open limping would not have merits?

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Haha... I dig your style [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Open-limping?
 

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Could you go into more detail please? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I appreciate it

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Big pairs and AK can be limped early on raising tables where the unaware are raising

Any two cards can be limped from any hand on loose-passive tables where there's one or two clear calling stations.

You can open-limp any decent cards on the button where the SB/BB is a raising maniac.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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I guess it's really a polarization issue. If you have a hand that you feel is worth investing in, why not raise and gain some FE on the flop? I understand the notion of limping behind people with hands that play better in multiway pots, but there's no guarantee of that if you're opening. Also, if you have a good hand/are in good position, wouldn't you want to start building the pot preflop?

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It is important to note how bad getting 3-bet sucks with certain hands. As always, you should adjust to your opposition.

Re: Open-limping?
 

I guess a better way to phrase my question would be:

"What hands do you open-limp, and why do you limp them as opposed to raising/folding?"

Threads, this is definitely true (and I've had to fold a lot of small pairs to 3bets after raising preflop with them), but this leads to a very narrow preflop raising range and less likelihood of having your big hands paid off, no?

Re: Open-limping?
 

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I guess a better way to phrase my question would be:

"What hands do you open-limp, and why do you limp them as opposed to raising/folding?"

Threads, this is definitely true (and I've had to fold a lot of small pairs to 3bets after raising preflop with them), but this leads to a very narrow preflop raising range and less likelihood of having your big hands paid off, no?

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If you ALWAYS open-limp Axs, PP's, and SC's then yes this is true. However, if you sometimes raise those hands and sometimes l/rr your premium hands and the Axs, PP's, and SC's as semi-bluffs then you will just catch people with their pants down.

Besides, who are these opponents that you are playing against that you are more worried about picking up on your tendencies than you are exploiting them?

Re: Open-limping?
 

The best way to think about this is what are you trying to accomplish and what is likely to happen with remaining players after you open. Are really going to open raise 44 from MP with a couple lags yet to act or worse short stacks? The table your playing tends to dictate how aggressive you can be preflop. The closer I am to the button, generally, the more aggressive I am with everything because the likelyhood of a multiway pot is decreasing and I think its much better to be the aggressor heads up. I assume this will be the same when moving up past NL25. I figure, and I would like confirmation from others, that the further up you go the less multiway pots you run into. Therefore increased PF aggro is a good thing.

Re: Open-limping?
 

LOL I am just in game re-evaluation mode and looking at my numbers is depressing. I'm pretty sure 60k hands at a given level isn't a lot, but it's not that small either. I find that asking questions like and starting discussions helps me think more about my game (which I hope is a good thing) lol

Re: Open-limping?
 

@OP:
I like to open limp with 22-99 from any position if:

- there are more than 3 shortstacks behind me (I can't call a 3bet from a shorty for set value and I don't want to push)

- if there are many calling stations (they don't fold enough to a c-bets)

NL200+ shorthanded:
- from middle or late position if the late position guys are 3betting light and won't stack off if I hit

well ... I'm not sure if that is a good strategy because those guys will notice that I only limp/call with pockets.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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The best way to think about this is what are you trying to accomplish and what is likely to happen with remaining players after you open. Are really going to open raise 44 from MP with a couple lags yet to act or worse short stacks? The table your playing tends to dictate how aggressive you can be preflop. The closer I am to the button, generally, the more aggressive I am with everything because the likelyhood of a multiway pot is decreasing and I think its much better to be the aggressor heads up. I assume this will be the same when moving up past NL25. I figure, and I would like confirmation from others, that the further up you go the less multiway pots you run into. Therefore increased PF aggro is a good thing.

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I dig it, although I believe after a certain point it flip flops. Specifically, once you start seeing tight players who like to 3-bet light then raising loses it's luster as they will start forcing you off your hands.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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I assume this will be the same when moving up past NL25. I figure, and I would like confirmation from others, that the further up you go the less multiway pots you run into.

[/ QUOTE ]They're still multiway for the most part just not 5-7 ways. They're are alot of 3-4 way pots at the $50. Depends how good you table select I suppose.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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Besides, who are these opponents that you are playing against that you are more worried about picking up on your tendencies than you are exploiting them?

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There doesn't seem to be many at NL25 who are paying attention. More than at NL10 maybe, but still not many. Besides most of the good players are multitabling so I find it hard to believe they are picking up on betting patterns or whether you always do this or that.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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Besides, who are these opponents that you are playing against that you are more worried about picking up on your tendencies than you are exploiting them?

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There doesn't seem to be many at NL25 who are paying attention. More than at NL10 maybe, but still not many. Besides most of the good players are multitabling so I find it hard to believe they are picking up on betting patterns or whether you always do this or that.

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Agreed. I'm sure you caught the sarcasm.. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Open-limping?
 

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It has merits in every FR game from every position.

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I'd like to hear the merits for openlimping the CO/MP3

Re: Open-limping?
 

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It has merits in every FR game from every position.

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I'd like to hear the merits for openlimping the CO/MP3

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thnk u [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Open-limping?
 

in general it sucks

there are specific situations where its necessary though.

also you can develop a limping game, but its very difficult and probably not worth the effort.

Re: Open-limping?
 

If you have a known villain who will raise any two in an unraised pot from the button preflop, couldn't you make the argument for open limping in CO/MP3 with a strong hand with the intention of rr?

Re: Open-limping?
 

If you're on the BT against a very weak SB or BB that makes a lot of mistakes post flop, you might stand to gain more from them if the hand goes deep than you would if you just stole their blinds.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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It has merits in every FR game from every position.

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I'd like to hear the merits for openlimping the CO/MP3

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I don't have a lot of time atm, so I'll come back to this later. But, just to start, here are some of my thoughts.

1. I think we overestimate the flop FE we gain by raising in LP. As a matter of fact, I think players give my stronger hands when I limp in LP. I find that I take the blinds with a bet on the flop much more frequently after I limp PF in LP. I do so with a lot smaller investment as well.

2. I think we underestimate winning a 10x pot.

3. As already mentioned, we need to consider our opponents. When I'm in the co and Kelisitaan is in the BB, I'm not openraising 33. I'm limping cuz he's 3 betting constantly and making my hand very difficult to play. As it stands, if he raises, now we get to make postflop difficult for him instead of me.

5. There are speculative hands that we can simply play postflop in position. We know that as the pot grows in comparison to the stacks remaining, being oop becomes less important, so why bloat it.

6. Limping can help us start to get trappy/tricky with other hands.

7. Alternate lines can really throw off excellent hand readers and make for a nice pot. I had 3 hands yesterday where I won stacks that had I played ABC, would have amounted to very little.

8. Sometimes raising will only get players to fold dominated hands. Example, you have AK otb and the blinds are both folding hands like AJ, AQ to raises when oop instead of 3betting or calling (and there are plenty of those players out there.)

In summary, as someone else mentionted, you can develop a limping game, and I've been working on doing this and balancing it with agression. I'm not saying I have any answers here, but these are my thoughts. We get in hands cheaply, increase our implied odds, and play poker in position.

Re: Open-limping?
 

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If you have a known villain who will raise any two in an unraised pot from the button preflop, couldn't you make the argument for open limping in CO/MP3 with a strong hand with the intention of rr?

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You can also simply call if they love firing multiple barrels when you've "shown weakness".

I guess my point in all this is that there are creative ways to take advantage of the very aggressive nature of online players.

Re: Open-limping?
 

I had a great example the other day against one of our posters here. I limped AA UTG with the plan of lrr most of the players at the table. However, it folded to the bb who checked. The flop came 9 high. He bet all 3 streets about 3/4, and I did nothing to make him stop. We showed down and he had flopped middle pair. He said "lol after the hand and probably thought my play was fishy. Meanwhile I'm scooping the max.