Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Farewell to 2+2

From: Kaj

Mason,

I've enjoyed this site for a long time. However, I will no longer be posting here or purchasing 2+2 material. I believe this site is completely unprofessional in the way it is managed. I know, it's just a message board, lighten up. That said, I have no problem with posters being rude, crude, witty, humorous, combative, whatever. My problem is that, IMO, your moderators represent your company, even if they are volunteers. The tone of the site seems to be a bunch of cliques ruled over arbitrarily by a some very rude, childish, power-tripping internet forum moderators. Not all are this way, but certainly more than a few. What's worse, is that the administrators of this site have ample evidence of this behavior as the very forum designed to discuss these issues (ATF) has become a cesspool of mods berating posters. On one hand, I enjoy such hazing and humor, but from other posters, not the administrators of the site itself. It casts a very unprofessional and unwelcoming image to your site. Some of the mods in question are over the top in flaunting the very rules of the forum they moderate (NT! is a good example of a mod who enjoys showing he needn't comply with 2+2 rules on profanity, insults, etc.). If mods can't be a good example and neutral in their style, then your site has devolved into a bunch of childish cliques. I remember in the past much more unbiased and respectful moderation by people like andyfox, compared to the juvenile insults of a tuq, jman220, NT!, stabn, and the like.

I'm sure a lost poster is no big deal, even if under my previous account I've been here since 2003. But I do suggest you take a look at how those charged with running your site represent your publishing company. I will be selling my 2+2 books on CraigsList and no longer buying them in the future.

Respectfully,
Kaj

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard, but it would be nice if someone handled the srs biz in ATF if I'm away or don't know the answer. I assume this PM is related to Mat's new ATF sticky.

I think one reason for the idea that "Mods gang up on users" in ATF is the don't criticize other mods rule. If a user criticizes a mod in ATF, it is basically against the rules to take the user's side. Since mods are a high percentage of posters in ATF, this can lead to a distorted view about the wisdom of a moderating decision.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

To be fair to NT!, he's had some real nitwits lately complaining about perfectly reasonable actions. In fact, I'm more appreciative of what he has to get through than I've ever been after seeing those dumb complaints.

I also think within forums, mods should run it as they see fit, and more laxity should be given to the busier forums like OOT and 4Life than the smaller forums, and there's just so much to get through for the mods of the bigger forums.


However, having said that, NT's being doing his rude asshat arrogant routine forever in ATF, and now seems a good time to actually curtail it massively. Just keep it in OOT or whatever. The same goes for any mods.

I think horsing around with other posters you know, like Tuq does, is perfectly fine though.

To unknown posters, we would be best to treat them with reasonable and considered comment in ATF.

If a poster posts a complaint that really doesn't deserve individual comment, just cut and paste the section of the sticky they broke the rule from.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

I'm not a fan of calling posters idiots, (for example), even if I would judge some of their actions idiotic.

With subtlety, you can make your point without splashing around in the gutter.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
With subtlety, you can make your point without splashing around in the gutter.

[/ QUOTE ]
For example, the Nielsio lolcats thread in ATF now is really funny.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I remember in the past much more unbiased and respectful moderation by people like andyfox, compared to the juvenile insults of a tuq, jman220, NT!, stabn, and the like.

[/ QUOTE ]
cabn isn't a mod and hasn't been for awhile. In fact, since probably before this poster re-registered under this account. I mean, I know everyone here knows that but have no clue how he missed it.

Also, I'm pretty sure I've never addressed this particular poster. Reason being is that from my limited sample size he is loony tunes, thus I have nothing positive to say to him and really don't care to get into some Politics-esque debate with him. The bottom line is, I hardly think he is representative of the average 2+2 poster or lurker. I also now get why you made the ATF sticky and why Ryan Beal made that clique post earlier. Knowing where it came from makes both things less meaningful IMO.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

I just continue to post mostly the same as if I was a regular poster, with a few insults leveled down. Dont see why we should be held to a much higher standard for a volunteer job.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dont see why we should be held to a much higher standard for a volunteer job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really see how us volunteering is relevant. We're volunteering to do the job asked of us by the admins.

If I volunteer at a local elementary school reading to the kids, I'm not going to say "but I'm a volunteer!" when they get mad at me for swearing.

In a more relevant example, if I were a volunteer firefighter in a small town, they would probably remove me from my position if I behaved inappropriately even if it had nothing to do with fighting fires. So I would be held to a higher standard than the average citizen while I was a volunteer.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

I hope that our concerns are fairly meaningless.
My sticky will remain regardless, both as a gesture of good will,and as a measurement tool.

Nobody has sent me a message yet. And I suspect and hope that the sticky is pointless from a practical standpoint.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I volunteer at a local elementary school reading to the kids, I'm not going to say "but I'm a volunteer!" when they get mad at me for swearing.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey kids I gotta rhyme for ya. It's from my favorite poet, his name is Andy Clay:

Hickory Dickory Dock
Some chick was suckin' my [censored]
The clock struck two
I dropped my goo
I dumped the bitch off on the next block

OH!

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

I think the jokes in ATF are fine.

I think at times people are a touch abrasive. Funny is fine, mean is probably pushing it.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just continue to post mostly the same as if I was a regular poster, with a few insults leveled down. Dont see why we should be held to a much higher standard for a volunteer job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur, but at the same time I wouldn't mind being asked to be held to a higher standard. 2+2 is huge now, its not the personal forum it was years ago when we started here (and even then it was considered huge compared to the real early days), so many of the users are confused by the role of a moderator, they view us as employees and as representatives of 2+2.

There is an old saying, if you cant beat them, join them. Why are we trying to make the majority conform to our view?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Im saying as non paid representatives I dont see why users should feel that we represent the views of the site by any means outside forums we moderate. Therefor outside out forums we should be the same as any other poster, and refrain from doing things like breaking the profanity filter that would get a normal user banned, but not us (cause we cant LDO), but open to respond to and insult other posters if we so want.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hope that our concerns are fairly meaningless.
My sticky will remain regardless, both as a gesture of good will,and as a measurement tool.

Nobody has sent me a message yet. And I suspect and hope that the sticky is pointless from a practical standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sent you a message [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I deleted my "ban Mat" post, it was in poor taste considering the timing; not funny. Sorry about that.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

i thought it was funny

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i thought it was funny

[/ QUOTE ]

Mt Charlston had snow. Sick! Snow in Las Vegas, and its only September!

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

so... what was his old account?

i seriously doubt the guy is selling 2+2 books on craigslist.. and even if he was, doesn't he realize that's actually helping the business?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

he's cyrus, isn't he?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
he's cyrus, isn't he?

[/ QUOTE ]
BluffTHIS thinks he is, but I spent a good 15 minutes searching IPs and I'm pretty sure he isn't. His old account was kidluckee with about 900 posts.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno if we want to start holding mods to a higher posting standard

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should be, and I've made it a point to do so myself. In my point of view we represent 2+2. 2+2 is a company of excellence. I hold myself to their high standards and believe we all should.

I also don't believe Mods should be doing any trash talking on the forums. Do it privately via PM if there's something that absolutely has to be said. In the Books and Publications forum I try to delete any post that includes any type of abuse, personal attack, or something that is not constructive to the thread or 2+2, in general. All members engaging in such activities are warned via PM or by a general statement I post in the forum. For example: I recently posted this in a thread where things were getting personal after I deleted all posts containing nonconstructive material.

[ QUOTE ]
I would just like to take a moment to remind everyone that this forum and all of 2+2 for that matter does not exist for members to engage in personal attacks and other childish behaviors. There may be some areas of this website where such things are allowed, but this forum is for the discussion of poker literature and other media and publications. I will not allow this type of bickering in this forum.

Those who have been members and actively participate on these forums know that I am extremely fair and logical in my reasoning. I rarely use my authority as a moderator. I credit the vast majority of that to the quality of the members who actively participate in this forum. They do not require me to act because they conduct themselves as gentleman. They use this forum and others on 2+2 to better themselves and others.

Debating topics is strongly encouraged on 2+2. Some debates escalate to arguments. Still I consider this to be acceptable. If everyone agreed all the time there would be nothing to discuss. But when the debates or arguments turn personal and members are attacking each other there is nothing for anyone to gain. Therefore, they are pointless in that they do not benefit anyone.

If any of you wish to continue to your "e-fighting" I urge you to take it back to whatever website it came from. I will suspend or ban permanently anyone who continues to behave as was done previously in this thread. I would much rather not have to do this. I know that there is much we can all learn from and share with you. I hope this thread can continue in a constructive manner. Thank you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think any Mod who can't conductive themselves in a constructive and respectable manner should be relieved of their duties as a Mod.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

"2+2 is a company of excellence."

Doesn't "a note about the english" or whatever kinda blow this one out the water?

I would say 2p2's standards are about I dunno, bellybutton level.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't believe Mods should be doing any trash talking on the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care what color your username is, I think calling people "stupid" or "retarded" is a tool that should be used sparingly and only when appropriate, if at all. But others - mods included - tend to make these words part of their regular forum diet. I'm tending to agree with those who say that mods set the tone, represent the site, etc., and as such should perhaps post with that in mind, but it's not my call and I can certainly see the counterargument.

As for the "who is Kaj" debate, I think a good half of his posts were in ATF where he constantly refused to answer that question, even though it wouldn't have been hard to do and would have put the matter to rest once and for all. He was being deliberately evasive for seemingly no reason.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Bellybutton level may be where things are now (what they've become) at least as far as the forum goes. As a company Mason prides himself in only publishing top-shelf books that are well written. I think it's only fair to provide our volunteer service on the in a way that meets with his standards of publishing. There's no reason we can't hold our members to that standard as well. But first we, as Mods, need to lead by example.

I agree with much of the PMer stated. These forums were once a very respectable place and an excellent source to become a better poker player. Now it seems that they are being over run with childishness. There are Mods that are certainly fueling the amount of childish behavior. Simply laying down some guidelines that are little more than kindergarten level behavioral standards would contribute to much better moderation and an overall much better poker forum.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

deac,

The forums were like you say back when the avg age of the 2p2 reader/customer was a LOT older. 2p2 has a different readership, and a different target demo now, and I think the forums simply reflect that.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think calling people "stupid" or "retarded" is a tool that should be used sparingly and only when appropriate, if at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm would agree with "if at all". How old are we? I remember when I was very young I was told, "if you don't have anything nice to say; don't say anything". I also remember being told to, "treat other people the way you want to be treated". I'm no saint. I've broken both of these little rules countless times. However, I have come to realize that if you really need to lay it down on someone you have to at least do it privately. Doing this on a public forum only gets people pissed off and filled with a need to defend themselves or counter punch. Then before you know it there's this huge public feud going on. It also makes us, as mods and representatives, of 2+2 look like a bunch of [censored].

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

That's a 100% valid point there, Dids. I'm sure what you stated has had much to do with the way thing are now compared to then. But it doesn't have to be like it is now. Maybe it would be too much to get the forums under control and behaving like gentleman. But I see no reason whatsoever that we can't get the Mods to act professional and as respectable representatives of 2+2.

I'm fairly certain that I am respected to a degree and well liked on the forums. I'd like to believe that much of that comes from being kind, helpful, respectful, fair, and logical. I don't get involved in e-feuds, and I don't allow them in B&P. As a result, the Books and Publications forum is very well behaved.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

deac,

To be fair, I'm not sure that the Books & Publications forum is another BBV4L ready to break out were it not for your leading by example. It's probably only slightly more chaotic than the Golf forum.

As for your "if at all" comment, I have busted out with the occasional well-placed insult and can't promise I won't in the future. But like I said it takes a lot to get to that. I do however regularly see some mods treat the forums like it's a full contact sport, but I have no idea what sort of effect that has on the forums as a whole.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

deac,

I'm guessing you don't frequent BBV/4L?

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
deac,

The forums were like you say back when the avg age of the 2p2 reader/customer was a LOT older. 2p2 has a different readership, and a different target demo now, and I think the forums simply reflect that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Back when it used to attract some die hard strat. posters who by definition are going to be smarter and more mature. 2+2 has moved well beyond just a strat. forum and the new userbase is operating a much less mature level.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
NT! is a good example of a mod who enjoys showing he needn't comply with 2+2 rules on profanity, insults, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

NT! has been acting like quite the tool lately, as evidenced by the following directed at me in open forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post12191401

Apparently, he doesn't quite understand the difference between a Google listing and a personal recommendation.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

chess,

wrong thread man, there's like a trillion other threads in this forum where people have been pointing out (amongst other things) that the "googletard" rule is incredibly stupid.

c

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it. I don't think you need a specific rule to nuke bad lazy posts if that rule then means that other less bad posts get nuked too.

Although, NT's point is probalby "regardless of the fairness of the rule, it's in the sticky" and I agree with that.

That said, a bit of searching through OOT probably would be more effective than a new NYC dinner thread.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would say 2p2's standards are about I dunno, bellybutton level.

[/ QUOTE ]
As always Bellybutton level is relitive. My bellybutton is higher than Did's, I am taller than him. The forums he moderate need a lower bellybutton threshold than my forum. The problem comes when people from the low bellybutton threshold forums explore other forums with a higher bellybutton threshold and mess with their culture - you get pissed off users or disenchanted end users.

I'd like to counter some of the things we have read so far i this thread.

1) I think the median age of 2+2 isnt as low as everyone thinks, we are postulating it is around 25-26.

2) There are countless older people I meet who refuse to post on 2+2 because the regulars are childish.

I think there is a balance in this mix somewhere. Back in the day when Studio 54 was the center of the universe Steve Rubell used to stand outside behind the velvet ropes (Studio 54 was kinda the first disco that chose who was allowed to come in) creating what he called a "Mixed Sallad". If he only let in beautiful people and celebrities then people would get bored. If he let in too many average Joes the celebrities would leave. He was a master of balance, he made sure that everyone who came inside felt the same experience, and everyone would become equal once they passed the velvet ropes. Of course there is not a 2+2 VIP guest list, no velvet ropes and anyone is invited to post here, but I think we can learn from Steve's approach. If we tilt to far to one segment we loose balance of the user mix.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
tuq, jman220, NT!, stabn

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel as though I'm in good company there.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
NT! is a good example of a mod who enjoys showing he needn't comply with 2+2 rules on profanity, insults, etc.).

[/ QUOTE ]

NT! has been acting like quite the tool lately, as evidenced by the following directed at me in open forum:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...ue#Post12191401

Apparently, he doesn't quite understand the difference between a Google listing and a personal recommendation.

[/ QUOTE ]

the rule is that you put some thought and effort into the post, do some of your own research and then come to the forum for an opinion. how hard is it to pull a couple places off menupages before you post? especially for something like a dinner recommendation in a particular city where only a small percentage of the forum's users live that will be of absolutely zero interest to everyone else. especially when there is another forum that specifically exists for this kind of issue (travel) and when the EDGF has had a big thread on NYC where you could start. this circumstance is SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the OOT sticky several times and yet you failed to grasp it.

i know the difference between googletarding and a personal recommendation. apparently you don't take the time to read and follow the rules in the forums you frequent, which reflects poorly on you as a mod IMO.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

also if i managed to get kaj to stop posting on this site by being mean to him in ATF then good riddance. i'm sure he has a new account already or will soon. he is a terrible poster.

in fact, most of the people saying 'if you don't fit into the little mod clique you are [censored]' are just plain bad posters who refuse to follow the rules in OT forums. this site permits a LOT of criticism of mods and a lot of extremely juvenile posts from users who have never contributed anything to this site. there are plenty of posters who have criticized me in the past who i have never acted against and even become pretty cool with (see: many of the BBV posters who don't suck).

this whole 'mods are like a gang who beat up on us unpopular posters' has become popular because we have several loosely moderated forums (ATF, BBV) that basically cater to posters who have been cast out of other forums for sucking. (that is not everyone in BBV but there is a contingent there) they are going to develop a culture and, being feeble-minded 14 year olds with lots of angst, of course that culture is going to be "look at me i'm a loner i'm a rebel i'm an outsider."

i'm not saying we should do anything about this - ATF and BBV are very popular forums that are sometimes very entertaining. i'm saying you people have to look rationally at the root causes of things like this and not wring your hands so much because someone we don't want posting here in the first place says (probably falsely) that he's never coming back.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

PM makes a good point. I used to enjoy the [censored] style of moderation, but the schtick is worn out, or maybe he just owned it better.

I agree with NT and others who say that most of the complaints in ATF are ridiculous. And I think its obvious that forums like BBV/BBV4L are pretty much bringing the entire site down as this attitude spreads. I still see no reason for moderators of the site to act like [censored] to the forum members.

I've posted on a few different forums, some where the mods were employees and others where they were volunteers, and I've never come across one where mods acted as they do on this site.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

i won't dispute that mods are much more abrasive on this site than most others i can think of. (SOSH has some very bitchy mods too, and a similar tone at times).

i think if people are really concerned about this, it's fair to look at mod selection. it's also fair to look at how much absolute bull [censored] some of the mods on this site are exposed to with absolutely no recourse to stop it. again, as a result of having several loosely modded forums where a culture of rebellion and negativity and puerile angst is the norm.

this doesn't particularly bother me (i can dish it out much better than the chumps in ATF anyway). if this site ever made a major move to say 'mods can't be mean like regular posters,' i would respond by saying that mods and admins should do more to defend each other from unreasonable attack if they want that to be realistic. and if that was a direction the site wanted to go i would fall in line with it.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

[ QUOTE ]

The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it. I don't think you need a specific rule to nuke bad lazy posts if that rule then means that other less bad posts get nuked too.

[/ QUOTE ]

you've kind of hit on it right here. in some ways having a hard and fast rule is quite cumbersome, it can be hard to articulate all the ins and outs of a decision to make a thread or not in a rule that people will still read. the problem is that if i don't make a relatively specific rule, people REALLY don't get it, and they complain about the uncertainty.

what i've basically done is write a rule where no thread i lock will not meet at least one or two of those criteria, so i can always point to it. but it doesn't mean i lock every thread that fits at least one of those definitions, because that would suck.

there is no way to enforce an absolute letter of the law on this rule and not have the forum be essentially dead, but chesspain's thread was out of order in about three or four different ways, so in that case it's really not close.

i don't believe in simply saying 'it's right because it's the rule,' in this case it's right because i've listed a bunch of reasons why someone should NOT make that post, and they each individually and as a whole contribute to making OOT more readable.

Re: Pm received by a few of us. Not sure what to think.
 

Dibs,

"The problem with the googletard rule is that I'm not sure what evil we're saving 2p2 from with it."

Like many individual forum rules, it serves to facilitate a better experience for the users based on the forum goals as determined by the moderators.