Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Subfallen,
I did not "leave" the thread. Sometimes I get very busy and cannot read 2+2, let alone post. If you notice, I likely have a gap in my posting history of a week or more. Further, when I checked back on that thread weeks later, I realized you added nothing new. You didn't answer my questions, and you simply re-asserted your previous position. Hence, there was no need to respond, unless I wanted to make my head asplode when you reasserted your position again as "obviously true".

I was also not arguing anything about Christian morality or metaphysics. Did you have reading comprehension problems when you were younger?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

IF LOGIC IS OVER MY HEAD THAN I SHOULD BE EXCEPTIONALLY EASY TO REFUTE.

Again, my position is very simple: it is dishonest to imply (through confusion of categories or equivocated language) that Christian metaphysics are actually meaningful.

Refutation please?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I want to know what this is all about.

Link?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer my questions,

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF was your question that I didn't answer?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

It's really not that big of a deal. Subfallen linked it earlier. And he linked it again in another thread a week or so ago (as I noticed today). I personally got bored with the thread with only 3 posts, but he keeps dredging it up. Basically Lebowski was wondering what Christians think about chinese ppl or something.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're the deuchiest christian i've ever encountered.

and that's saying something.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I want to know what this is all about.

Link?

[/ QUOTE ]

Silent -

Link. There's no resolution because BTIrish stopped responding.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

FROM THE OTHER THREAD. I WILL TRY TO SUMMARIZE.

Basically, no one has any clue what you mean when you say "actually meaningful". WHAT I WAS REFUTING FOR THE 18 BILLIONTH TIME, is that you do not have to observe something for it to have "actual meaning". I claimed no position on Christian metaphysics or Christian morality.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's really not that big of a deal. Subfallen linked it earlier. And he linked it again in another thread a week or so ago (as I noticed today). I personally got bored with the thread with only 3 posts, but he keeps dredging it up. Basically Lebowski was wondering what Christians think about chinese ppl or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's try this again.

It is dishonest to imply (through confusion of categories or equivocated language) that Christian metaphysics are actually meaningful.

Refutation please?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Please define "actually meaningful".

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
FROM THE OTHER THREAD. I WILL TRY TO SUMMARIZE.

Basically, no one has any clue what you mean when you say "actually meaningful". WHAT I WAS REFUTING FOR THE 18 BILLIONTH TIME, is that you do not have to observe something for it to have "actual meaning". I claimed no position on Christian metaphysics or Christian morality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually meaningful: makes a falsifiable statement about observable reality. Subjectively meaningful: everything else.

Different categories, confusing them without admitting it is mendacious. This is what BTIrish was doing.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Subfallen,
Actually, LOL. Based on your most recent post referencing that thread weeks ago, I don't think you even comprehended what I was arguing for or against.

I think this logic stuff is over your head. Don't worry about it fella! I'll try to be nicer in the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're the deuchiest christian i've ever encountered.

and that's saying something.

[/ QUOTE ]

mbillie,
Thank you. If you read Subfallen's previous interactions with me, you may actually understand why I talk like that to him. You may continue being misinformed though, and believe that I must be a douchebag because "I am the Christian". Keep on truckin', atheist soldier.

PS -- When people are respectful and try to have honest discussion, I am respectful in return.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]

Actually meaningful: makes a falsifiable statement about observable reality. Subjectively meaningful: everything else.

Different categories, confusing them without admitting it is mendacious. This is what BTIrish was doing.


[/ QUOTE ]

Refutation please.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

So, by your own definitions, pure mathematics is only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL. This is extremely important, please take note of what I am saying. In other words (edit: by your definitions), statements involving pure mathematics are not objectively falsifiable.

You cannot OBSERVE statements arising in pure mathematics. Math is still "actually meaningful".

Your eyeball is not some magic "actual meaning" granting entity.

I'm am NOT saying Christian metaphysics or morality must be true, in any way shape or form.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Good question. I have come close, on several occasions, to making a similar post. Mine would have differed slightly, though, and would have been more general. I ask: why do people spend so much effort arguing and debating with people who are clearly not able to comprehend logic? There may be some who simply don't accept logic, and maybe, in their case, it's worth it to debate. However, there are clearly some who are unable to comprehend logic. Yet, many smart people spend a lot of time trying to make them understand, and it's a lesson in futility.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, by your own definitions, pure mathematics is only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL. This is extremely important, please take note of what I am saying. In other words (edit: by your definitions), statements involving pure mathematics are not objectively falsifiable.

You cannot OBSERVE statements arising in pure mathematics. Math is still "actually meaningful".

[/ QUOTE ]

No, math is a priori only subjectively meaningful. As Einstein said, "As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."

If you thought you were trapping me here, you're just adorable.

[ QUOTE ]
Your eyeball is not some magic "actual meaning" granting entity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, yes, the senses and their interface with consciousness are the necessary and sufficient standard for falsifiability and thus actual meaning.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, yes, the senses and their interface with consciousness are the necessary and sufficient standard for falsifiability and thus actual meaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on man. You're telling me that Euler, after he went blind, was thereafter incapable of discovering ideas with "actual meaning".

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Another question for you. Are people with biological defects in their eye incapable of discovering "actually meaningful" truth, or claims, whatever?

How do we KNOW that your, or my, or anyone else's eyeball works so perfectly that it is the ultimate standard for knowledge? It's not because of an a priori assumption is it?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you even read the wonderful little Einstein aphorism? The foundation of the hard sciences is making empirically falsifiable models. Obviously the models are usually mathematical. However the "actual meaning" of a model is determined by how its observable predictions perform.

[ QUOTE ]

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actual meaning requires a falsifiable impact on consciousness. What on earth is "magical" about that? Isn't it the most frightfully economical and pragmatic requirement imaginable?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another question for you. Are people with biological defects in their eye incapable of discovering "actually meaningful" truth, or claims, whatever?

How do we KNOW that your, or my, or anyone else's eyeball works so perfectly that it is the ultimate standard for knowledge? It's not because of an a priori assumption is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Are you really basing your whole argument on a quote by Einstein? The model's "ACTUAL MEANING" is not determined by observable predictions. Its meaning IN RELATION TO PHYSICS (observable pheneomena) is determined by the observations. The equation itself CAN STILL HAVE ACTUAL MEANING. This is what mathematical definitions are for. Wow, how can an entire subject (of which nearly all of the hard sciences are based on) be based on concepts that are only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL??

"Actual meaning requires a falsifiable impact on consciousness."

One does not have to observe something for it to be falsifiable. You can think without your eyeball.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which eyeball are we deriving ALL of our knowledge from? What if two eyeballs disagree? If we choose a colorblind individual as our ultimate standard, does color cease to exist? If you say we should choose someone else as our ultimate, perfect sensory information integrator (from which all our knowledge is derived), how do you go about choosing them? Sensory information is dependent on the evolution of our nervous system. This is partly dependent on random mutations. In other words, everyone experiences things differently. How do we pick the "right" sensory experience?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you really basing your whole argument on a quote by Einstein? The model's "ACTUAL MEANING" is not determined by observable predictions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, what? Yes, actually it is.

[ QUOTE ]
Its meaning IN RELATION TO PHYSICS (observable pheneomena) is determined by the observations. The equation itself CAN STILL HAVE ACTUAL MEANING.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, that's only subjective (definitional) meaning. If there is no reference to reality then the meaning is only subjective.

[ QUOTE ]
This is what mathematical definitions are for. Wow, how can an entire subject (of which nearly all of the hard sciences are based on) be based on concepts that are only SUBJECTIVELY MEANINGFUL??

[/ QUOTE ]

Models are actually meaningful in that they are falsifiable and predictive. Math itself is only subjectively meaningful.

[ QUOTE ]
One does not have to observe something for it to be falsifiable. You can think without your eyeball.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, based on prior observation and sensory experience. It is pretty obvious that if you were completely deprived of sensory input from birth, you would not have any actually meaningful thoughts. (Or, probably, any consciousness at all.)

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is turning into a huge leveling of sorts. Posts like this are what makes me care about religion so much. i.e. it takes religion to make someone as confident as you are about things you clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sensory impact on consciousness, visual or otherwise. But the whole point is that, NO, actual meaning doesn't require any a priori assumption because it derives from existential sources.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which eyeball are we deriving ALL of our knowledge from? What if two eyeballs disagree? If we choose a colorblind individual as our ultimate standard, does color cease to exist? If you say we should choose someone else as our ultimate, perfect sensory information integrator (from which all our knowledge is derived), how do you go about choosing them? Sensory information is dependent on the evolution of our nervous system. This is partly dependent on random mutations. In other words, everyone experiences things differently. How do we pick the "right" sensory experience?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would we assume there's any "right" experiential standard? Or a constant one? I never said anything there was anything "absolute" about any sort of meaning.

However, given the universal limitations of human conscious experience, some things are necessarily beyond possible experience. Things like supra-temporality. Or omnipresence.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Well, OK. You are basically just re-asserting stuff that I disagree with.

"It is pretty obvious that if you were completely deprived of sensory input from birth, you would not have any actually meaningful thoughts."

I don't think this is obviously true at all.

I don't understand how the position that "all knowledge is derived from sensory input" requires NO a priori assumptions. To me, it seems clear that the position itself is an a priori claim. There is nothing in the environment which states "what you see here? yeah, it's definitely absolute truth". It seems, to me, that we must assume our sensory information is accurate.

I must go for the time being. I also think we are arguing in circles, and I honestly don't understand why you think your position requires no a priori assumptions. I will try to get back with you later.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

Well start a new thread at some point then.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, how cute. You really think mathematics is only "subjectively meaningful"? You really aren't going to back down from that? I'm sorry, but if you actually hold this position, I'm not sure I can debate past that. It is really about as "obviously wrong", from my perspective, as you can get. Math is the FOUNDATION for the hard sciences. How on Earth is your eyeball superior to math in finding "real truth"?

So, what it is about your eyeball that magically grants you priveleged metaphysical status?

[/ QUOTE ]
This thread is turning into a huge leveling of sorts. Posts like this are what makes me care about religion so much. i.e. it takes religion to make someone as confident as you are about things you clearly have no knowledge of whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I am not getting involved in your semantic games. The posts in this thread and the one I quoted have enough representative content for fair-minded people to see. i.e. your attitude of "well i refuse to back down on this because FROM MY PERSPECTIVE it makes perfect sense."

If you really want an example though... you appear to be claiming knowledge about math, science and the types of truth statements they make, and missing the point very badly. I will let Subfallen elaborate.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well start a new thread at some point then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good. BTW, I actually like you when I don't think you're being a dick [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. You make some good posts. Sorry for being a dick in return, it's a reflex [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I am not getting involved in your semantic games. The posts in this thread and the one I quoted have enough representative content for fair-minded people to see. i.e. your attitude of "well i refuse to back down on this because FROM MY PERSPECTIVE it makes perfect sense."

If you really want an example though... you appear to be claiming knowledge about math, science and the types of truth statements they make, and missing the point very badly. I will let Subfallen elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was a pathetic attempt at a straw man, purposeful or not.

Edit: To make it clear, Matt, it doesn't matter if you claim to have knowledge of something or not. tpir was correct that you are acting very confident in your arguments concerning the subject of math. I don't want to get into about whether or not you have any knowledge of math. It is simply irrelevant whether or not you claim knowledge of it.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
tpir,
What, exactly, am I claiming knowledge of?

Please be explicit in what you believe I am claiming knowledge of, and any evidence that I have posted that leads you to this conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I am not getting involved in your semantic games. The posts in this thread and the one I quoted have enough representative content for fair-minded people to see. i.e. your attitude of "well i refuse to back down on this because FROM MY PERSPECTIVE it makes perfect sense."

If you really want an example though... you appear to be claiming knowledge about math, science and the types of truth statements they make, and missing the point very badly. I will let Subfallen elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not. I think you are projecting things into my argument that aren't there. For evidence of this, I think you should realize that you simply said "you appear to be" and could not point to any direct things I have said.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that was a pathetic attempt at a straw man, purposely or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gah. From me? If so, can you point to it? Or is it from tpir? From your other post in this thread, I'm guessing you were talking about me. But considering the accusation makes no sense when directed at me, I am not sure.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Non-Christian regimes were the root cause of the death of perhaps 100,000,000 people last century.

But no need to worry, we're all better, enlightened and all.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Non-Christian regimes were the root cause of the death of perhaps 100,000,000 people last century.

But no need to worry, we're all better, enlightened and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

that 'argument' always seems retarded to me.
"I don't want a bear to eat my dog."
"Why, more dogs are killed by cars than bears".
"oh, ok, then I guess I do want a bear to eat my dog".

Where does it imply that I want to be abused by a non-theist regime? I stated the things I don't want to occur because of some guy doing what his god is telling him. I try to keep the other nutties out of power also.

If Pol Pot comes back in power and kills 40,000,000 next year, I still don't want a rape victim to be forced to go to term in Alabama.
How you read that as support for Pol Pot, or meaning that Pol Pot wasn't worse.... oh, never mind, I do know why.

luckyme

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Theism is a problem in our world.

[/ QUOTE ]

What? Someone believing in God is a problem for you? LoL.

pokervintage

[/ QUOTE ]

My cousin is gay. My aunts neighbor was in the tower. My neighbors cousin was raped and needs an abortion. My best friends sister-in-law's niece has aids in africa. My ....

Yep. It's a problem for me. How personal does it have to be before it can be deemed a problem? I'm not a gay pregnant person with aids in africa if that's what you're wondering.
( I made up the other stuff).

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Non-Christian regimes were the root cause of the death of perhaps 100,000,000 people last century.

But no need to worry, we're all better, enlightened and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

that 'argument' always seems retarded to me.
"I don't want a bear to eat my dog."
"Why, more dogs are killed by cars than bears".
"oh, ok, then I guess I do want a bear to eat my dog".

Where does it imply that I want to be abused by a non-theist regime? I stated the things I don't want to occur because of some guy doing what his god is telling him. I try to keep the other nutties out of power also.

If Pol Pot comes back in power and kills 40,000,000 next year, I still don't want a rape victim to be forced to go to term in Alabama.
How you read that as support for Pol Pot, or meaning that Pol Pot wasn't worse.... oh, never mind, I do know why.

luckyme

[/ QUOTE ]

Accept that it's a trade. Eliminate Christianity and understand that the opportunity for Stalin and Pol Pot is increased, and with it, so is the chance your girlfriend won't be murdering any babies in the womb.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

How is the opportunity for Stalin or Pol Pot increased with the elimination of Christianity?

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well start a new thread at some point then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good. BTW, I actually like you when I don't think you're being a dick [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. You make some good posts. Sorry for being a dick in return, it's a reflex [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

One interesting quote regarding the possibility of consciousness/meaningful thought without any sensory precedent:

"Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness....Since I had no power of thought, I did not compare one mental state with another."
- Helen Keller, The World I Live In (1908)

And of course Keller still had kinesthetic/tactile stimuli despite being deaf, blind, and mute.

Re: why does this forum care so much about religion
 

the first posts by nielsio, metric and gumzilla all ring very true to me