Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Villain is unknown. Is 3betting this flop the standard line?

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $124.92
BB: $115.42
UTG: $22
Hero (CO): $118.58
BTN: $99.15

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, BTN calls $4, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $16</font>, Hero????

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Dont we hate getting pushed on?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

i don't like a 3 bet, just call an re-evaluate on the turn.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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i don't like a 3 bet, just call an re-evaluate on the turn.

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Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

I'm OOP and won't most turn cards hurt me as oppose to helping me?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

those in the checking camp are you auto checking the turn or are you ever taking a stop and go line?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

i think i make it 38/fold, i dont think hes going to shove often enough and sine hes donkish he can call with all kinds of crap, then id be happy to get it in on the turn

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

call and reevaluate. this hand sucks cause it smashes the villain's range and at the same time we're almost certainly good enough of the time to make a call correct.

however, who knows what our reverse implied odds are come the turn and river. There are so many bad cards for us on the turn and river. And we don't know which ones help or hurt villain. This hand would be so much better to continue with if we had position. OOP this is a lot tougher. if he was aggressive and capable of contiuing to bet and bluff the turn and river, i'd just fold the flop. But since the Villain is an unknown, I'm going to hope that he's passive and we'll check behind alot on the turn.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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those in the checking camp are you auto checking the turn or are you ever taking a stop and go line?

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Just to be clear, I dont know what camp I'm in. All I know is that the worst thing about 3betting the flop is getting pushed on.

On the other hand the worst thing about flatting the flop is all the bad turn cards.

If we 3bet the flop, do we hope he folds?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I'm OOP and won't most turn cards hurt me as oppose to helping me?

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Well, they might hurt you, or they might "help" you, Villain doesn't know. He's unlikely to make this move with random overcards, so you aren't that worried about overcards, which you hope will slow him down and let you get to a relatively cheap showdown.

It's a good impulse to "protect" your hand, but the problem is that it's not really good enough to protect here. In a shallower-stack game a push would be fine.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

call and see turn, 3 bet is bad imo, we want to get to showdown here

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Should I check with the intention of calling or lead and try to take the pot down? I don't think i'm folding a better overpair (JJ-TT) with one barrel though, and I think it'd be spew to fire two streets just to fold out these hands.

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $124.92
BB: $115.42
UTG: $22
Hero (CO): $118.58
BTN: $99.15

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, BTN calls $4, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $16</font>, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($41.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks?????

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Honestly, I probably c/f the turn vs. an unknown. If you had a read, all other options would be on the table.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Pineapple,

but the turn changes nothing no? I was either behind on the flop or i wasn't. Is the fact that if villain raises the flop and bets an overcard he is usually either bluffing or has me beat and because we don't know the frequency of either we skew his range to the latter and let the hand go?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Pretty interesting hand but having no reads makes it tough. I don't really like 3-betting the flop for over 40% of our stack and then folding, but I must admit it has some merits.

On the turn I'm likely checking. We're almost never getting a better hand to fold even if we bet both turn and river. Bet/folding the turn for about 30 is slightly better than 3-bet/folding the flop imo.

After checking the turn I don't think I can fold. We're still only behind set/65 and if villain has some combodraw (54/67 etc), 4x or pure air I think he'll fire this turn alot so I'm considering a crai.

I'm torn on both the flop and turn in this hand though.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

I'd fold the flop sometimes, just because it's so hard to continue OOP against an unknown here.

If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

What is the guys range on the flop?
34,56,78,67,33-66,77,88 + a bluff on a perceived c-bet.

I’m good against everything except a set and two pair, and I have a decent redraw against the two pair.

Is it really horrible to 3bet and stack off on the flop at 100NL? 3betting and calling a shove was my first thought on this hand. I think I do that, or fold. Calling and trying to play the rest of the hand oop is basically just putting yourself in a worse spot, imo

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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Pineapple,

but the turn changes nothing no? I was either behind on the flop or i wasn't. Is the fact that if villain raises the flop and bets an overcard he is usually either bluffing or has me beat and because we don't know the frequency of either we skew his range to the latter and let the hand go?

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Again, he doesn't know that the turn changes nothing. He doesn't know what you have, and whether he is ahead or behind. Maybe he's happy to just draw if he's drawing, or to get to showdown. So if he bets, I just go ahead and give him credit for something that beats me.

Not every hand has to be played for stacks.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card. I'm not a big fan of going broke here at all, but I do prefer waiting until the turn to move, if you are hell-bent on getting your stack in.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

against an unknown i think calling the minraise is the standard line. there are several cards on the turn that give you an easy decision if he keeps firing

i don't like the 3bet because whilst we can get called by worse we don't really know what this villain is capable of

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Well I think you are assuming too deep a level of thinking by some random unknown. But if that's your judgment, there's no more to be said, I guess.

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I'm not assuming any deep thinking at all. You're just focusing on the one line where I say villain isn't likely to put you on a Q and ignore the rest of my post.

If anything I overestimate how often a random player will bluff the flop. That's fine if you disagree with, I don't think folding is that big of a mistake but with my estimations I think crai on the turn is best.

As for the part you were referring to, I think it would be bad to assume villain is clueless and fear you having Qx. I agree this will sometimes be the case, but more often a player that's bluffy enough to bluff the flop will see the Q as a reason/excuse to bet the turn.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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Like pineapple said: "The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card."

3-betting the flop will get him to fold his bluffs and maybe his semi-bluffs. Also he might still call the turn with his 13-outers (like 54) getting decent odds.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

i dont like 3-betting flop, i like calling and evaluating. as played, check and see what he does. the Q changed little.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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Like pineapple said: "The idea is to get another bet out of him, then go broke on a "safe" turn card."

3-betting the flop will get him to fold his bluffs and maybe his semi-bluffs. Also he might still call the turn with his 13-outers (like 54) getting decent odds.

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Gotcha,

Summary to confirm my understanding of your point:
So any turn card that does not hit obvious draws you would commit to the hand with a check raise. By doing this you are able to increase the probability that the guy puts more bad money into the middle.

If he has the two pair or set then we get stacked just the same as we would have on the flop.

If a draw card comes and he was on a complete bluff, his bluff works... good for him.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I'm OOP and won't most turn cards hurt me as oppose to helping me?

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Yes, so call and lead/fold turn.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Donking turn is ok, as is check folding to a bet of more than 1/2 po

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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i think i make it 38/fold, i dont think hes going to shove often enough and sine hes donkish he can call with all kinds of crap, then id be happy to get it in on the turn

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Do you read souls? I thought villain was unknown!? Where's your read from?

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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i think i make it 38/fold, i dont think hes going to shove often enough and sine hes donkish he can call with all kinds of crap, then id be happy to get it in on the turn



[/ QUOTE ] Do you read souls? I thought villain was unknown!? Where's your read from?

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Lol. I just assumed it was the Party Poker NL 100 portion of the op.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If I'm continuing, I call and CRAI on turns like this (folding on A, 2, 4, 5, and 6).

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I think this is a decent plan and I add fold on a 7.

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Problem with this line is that it virtually forces him to play perfectly against you, unless you think you can get an unknown off TT+, which I don't.

Which isn't necessarily a fatal problem, but it does mean you better be real confident he's firing again with a bunch of worse hands.

And I don't really see how you can have that read here.

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I think this is a turncard he's likely to fire on alot with semi-bluffs he raised on the flop. And even if you say he doesn't know we don't have Qx, why would he ever suspect we have? A Q in our range wouldn't make any sense at all.

Ime people that min-raise the flop with semi-bluffs/bluffs tend to view a call as weakness and be happy to fire another bullet on the turn (often a big one), esp on a scare card. I see this line a ton.

Now we don't know this guy is likely to min-raise the flop with bluffs, but the only likely hands we're behind is set/65 and maybe JJ/TT. That's a pretty tight range so I think an unknowns range consists of enough bluffs, semi-bluffs or worse made hands to crai.

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Then why wait till the turn? What is wrong with 3betting and stacking off on this flop?

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1) you aren't as far ahead of these hands as you are on most turn cards
2) when you c/r the turn you present (bad) villains with better odds to stack off
3) you often gain information on the turn (if villain checks behind, he is more likely to have a draw, for example).
4) villain's range for betting the turn after you call the flop and check the turn is WAY wider than villain's range for pushing after you 3-bet the flop.

There are more reasons, but these 4 are a good start (especially 1 and 4).

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

Actually I like calling the flop, then bet-folding the turn because if an overcard comes on the turn he is less likely to push with a hand you beat such as A6

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

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So, let me get this straight... because your hand has showdown value, you take a line that virtually guarantees you won't get a cheap showdown.

As for my line being "weak", sometimes it's OK to get moved off the best hand, especially OOP. All you have is a crappy overpair.

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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I think check/folding the turn is pretty weak.

If I had a hand with less showdown value, I might 3bet-fold the flop, and take a note on whether villain minraises with monsters or crap.


We do have a hand with some show down value, but if villain is not passive (he raised so he is probably not that passive) there is no way this is going to showdown easily, given that we are OOP. So we are going to be aggressive to avoid getting stepped on.

I'm hesitating between 3 betting/fold the flop and calling the flop then bet/folding the turn

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So, let me get this straight... because your hand has showdown value, you take a line that virtually guarantees you won't get a cheap showdown.

As for my line being "weak", sometimes it's OK to get moved off the best hand, especially OOP. All you have is a crappy overpair.

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No, what I meant is that we have showdown value, but unless villain is passive it doesn't matter since we aren't going to see a cheap showdown.

If I knew villain was passive I would check/fold that turn and try to go to showdown cheaply.

Then you're probably right that we can play that hand weakly and wait to know more about the villain

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

well here is the hand in its whole. I bet 2/3 on the turn, any problems with my bet size? Reasons for betting is value against a draw, and 77-88 type of a hand. Even though the overcard falls I don't see 77+ folding. If river wasn't a scare card I would be block betting.

It seems like c/f the turn would have been a better line.

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $124.92
BB: $115.42
UTG: $22
Hero (CO): $118.58
BTN: $99.15

Pre-Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4</font>, BTN calls $4, 2 folds

Flop: ($9.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $8</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $16</font>, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($41.50) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $27</font>, BTN calls $27

River: ($95.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks with the intentions of folding

Re: Getting mini raised on the flop with a vulnerable hand
 

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If river wasn't a scare card I would be block betting.


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You only have 1/2 psb.