new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

plo hi only, super deep plo isnt a daily occurence so i have to admit im a little rusty and may have some fuzzy thinking.
pot is straddled laggy bizarre utg w/ 8k limps, i w/ 3.5k raise to 30 in cutoff w/ 2d3s3d5s, looose passive button w/ 9k makes it 100, utg calls i call.

flop is 378 rainbow. utg checks i check and decide to get in a check raise, button bets 200, utg makes it 600, now utgs range is any 2 pr any set any draw i decide my best play here is to call and reassess the turn. i have a feeling utg wont lead out w. 2pr once i call here. so i call and the button calls putting himself solidly on an overpair, should i assume he has a draw to go w/ it?

turn is a j no flush draw. utg checks as i have hoped, i bet 1500 now button pots it, utg folds set of 7's face up. i decide the button has aa9t cause w/ stax so deep he cant move in in front of the other huge stack w/ jj and i should call, so i do. he actually turns kk9t, we run it twice and i escape w/ a chop but i really felt uneasy about my thought/decision process and feel i need to think about the game a little before going back, thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

If this game doesn't normally go you can expect people to play really really badly. Not just bad as in normal LA NL games bad but bad because they will overplay hands even more in PLO. Preflop is fine, it is on the loose side but good if your opponents play badly.

I'd definitely expect button to have a draw (even a nut gutshot) when he calls the flop check raise, if he really is terrible then a bare overpair is possible. I think I'd check the turn. You don't get much value from worse, you don't really need to protect your hand against 2 pair or an overpair because they have few outs, and you don't need to spew money off to a set or the straight. Everywhere else in the hand it seems like you are putting in money good or with a good price.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

If I don't make any allowances for playing bad just b/c live is boring:

Fold preflop, bet flop, fold to bet and raise. Check turn and if you do bet, fold to the raise.

Other than that you played it perfect. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

When the button calls the flop I would put him a draw like 100%. I would toss AAragrag quickly here in his position. Furthermore, just because he 3bets pf, that shouldn't necessarily mean he has a high pair. With deep stacks it's better to 3bet good drawing hands than high pairs. That said, I would play it very slowly when the turn hits, because that is that card means the most likely draw for the button has hit. I would check and re-evaluate, probably c-f.

EDIT: I have assumed you're playing thinking opponents, if these live games are full of donkeys it makes things different ofc. However, I would still put BTN on a straight a lot so check turn.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

id actually like to hear your analysis...

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Fold preflop,

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reasons


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bet flop,

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reasons

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fold to bet and raise.

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reasons


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Check turn and if you do bet, fold to the raise.

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reasons?

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

Wait, why should we call the turn raise? (Not that I would have bet the turn, nor played preflop, etc.)

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

think we are priced in to the turn call getting 5-1 with 8 outs, if you put him on an overset even 10% of the time or so it is a fold though.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

is folding this flop really that bad? and wtfs with guy flipping his cards up in the middle of the hand?
i toss this preflop too
i like betting out on the flop. check raising bottom set if it goes raise reraise is just bad news obv. i wouldnt feel very happy about check raising even if button bet and utg cold called. betting the turn is not a good idea. you are very rarely ahead here. you might as well just shove the flop if your going to bet get it in on a j turn. i feel like [censored] so some of this might not make much sense.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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If this game doesn't normally go you can expect people to play really really badly.

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I'm sure we all have great stories about live Omaha, but mine is hitting the nut flush and having two people raise like 5 times (limit omaha). I kept looking at my cards and the board to make sure that there really was a flush on the board and a straight wasn't possible.

Someone just had some middle flush and another a straight or some other nonsense.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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think we are priced in to the turn call getting 5-1 with 8 outs, if you put him on an overset even 10% of the time or so it is a fold though.

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oh i see stack sizes now

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

Like a lot of big bet games, the play on all the streets is pretty debatable. Certainly your way is not a bad way, mostly. The turn is probably the most debatable play. Although you end up with a compulsory call eventually, you have put in just under 3k in a pretty bad spot. Imagine, just hypothetically, if the button had passed and the UTG had check raised you allin instead. You would have ended up calling with one out.

The real problem is preflop. You just don't need to play so tricky/creative against bad players. Deception value based on preflop action is mostly overrated in PLO anyway, and against bad players it is just wasted end of story. Pass prelop.

gl

bdd

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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id actually like to hear your analysis...

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OK.

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Fold preflop,

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I'd think this one's fairly obvious. You're 7 buy-ins deep and you've got a hand that's almost impossible to make the nuts with. A4x is the only flop that gives you a decent wrap, and you're going to be on the wrong end of any set-over-set confrontations unless someone has the case two deuces on an x32 flop. This is a hand I'd usually open-fold in the CO with 100 BB. Playing it this deep in a multi-way pot is suicide.


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bet flop,

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You've got a very strong hand, you're second to last to act, and you're playing with a bunch of loose-passive live players. Furthermore, the player behind you doesn't even have the betting lead.

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fold to bet and raise.

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You're now behind your opponents' ranges. Saying the check/raiser can have "any two pair" is extremely optimistic. He might have top two occasionally, but it will usually be a set.


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Check turn and if you do bet, fold to the raise.

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The player behind you is strongly giving evidence of a draw. There was no flush draw on the flop and the most likely open-ender got there as did the good wraps. You are giving away the entire value of your hand (when it's even live) by making it a near break-even decision between a fold and a call when it's raised behind you (which it will be over 50% of the time IMO).

I don't want to recalculate the pot odds, but I think I figured that with 7/38 cards being outs for you, you were just barely short of the direct odds to call and I think you lose more value from the times you're against JJJ, then you gain in the rare circumstances where weaker hands raise you.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

I definitely agree with iggy here.
I really dislike a turn bet. You just don't figure to be ahead, and you could potentially be in terrible shape.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

I am OKAY with teh call since you'll get to see UTG react to button on the flop first. I wouldn't make the call myself though given the deep stacks.

Bet flop. Probable best hand and you can't really count on button to bet the hand for you with two others in the hand. C/R is okay some of the time but not my default.

I llike folding on the flop after UTG raised although calling to reevaluate turn is okay here. If button folds, I'd bet any turn (amount depends on what turn card is). If button calls, then I am probably done with the hand (button is likely to call with any draw, that's why I prefer folding here). If button is laggy and capable of pushing with backdoor flush + overpair + OPESDs... fold, you can get squeezed here badly a lot.

Turn bet is bad (probably the worst part about the hand in my opinion). You're getting no value here from anything worse and very likely putting yourself in a real bad spot.

Using your own analysis, UTG has at least two pairs or a premium draw. two pairs has 4 outs and won't call you so there is no value. The premium draws on a rainbow board just hit. If button folds to your bet, it is still not certain UTG will fold a higher set but it is almost certain he'd fold pairs so there is questionable fold equity here.

On the other hand, if you get raised... you just stuck in a lot of money as a rather big dog.

I'd call turn raise although it's probably a leak in my game.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

Limon, when you bet the turn were you betting for value or as a bluff?

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

i don't mind preflop, but my thinking is more that i'm going to try and isolate and take it away from UTG, and less about what cards i have. You really can't play a big pot 7 BI deep with those cards even if you hit your hand, so your cards are more backup/safety net.

Flop I think c-r or lead is fine. Most players w big pairs will bet on that kind of board, so i like check-raise. When UTG pops it, i call. You are dead to a set, likely a modest favorite to a wrap, and he'll likely fold twopair if you raise.

Turn i check as its too likely one of them hit w 9T. They are betting and calling with something here after all.

-g

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

Fold preflop, as igg said hard to get the nuts, and u cant stack off with bottom set happily oterwise. + The hand leaves u in nasty spots like this where you have no cluw what to do. Esp this deep. The downside if being oversetted if u are 100-200bb deep live isnt that bad, and you can play your sets much more strongly.

Generally i need JJxx or bether to play for set, but I obvs play 8875, 9910J stuff too.

Turn is a bluff. You bet when the most obvs draw hits.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

when you give a post with such strict reads on players, you should expect to get responses based on those reads. In this case that hasn't happened: you got responses based on normal online players.

If your reads are 100% correct then go with the line you took, because you are getting money in good. If your reads are crippled because this is not your normal game, then go with the line everyone else gives (folding a lot). If it is somewhere in between, use your judgement: that is where you make your money, where the decisions are not clear.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

Something i'll add is that, in the game as described, I would raise this hand from the co (at least something), but I would seriously consider folding to the 3bet from the button. We no longer have the betting lead, and we are playing OOP not only with a hand we know isn't the best, but that isn't going to hit many flops. Playing big pots deep oop without the betting lead is very very rarely +ev.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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i don't mind preflop, but my thinking is more that i'm going to try and isolate and take it away from UTG, and less about what cards i have. You really can't play a big pot 7 BI deep with those cards even if you hit your hand, so your cards are more backup/safety net.

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this is what i was thinking and how i have always played, seems it is really disliked here (iggy?). dont people feel you need to play aggressive w/ a wide range against a single limper from late pos? for value and for meta game/advertisement purposes?

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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Limon, when you bet the turn were you betting for value or as a bluff?

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i actually put the utg player on top 2 on the flop and the button on aces w/ a weak backup draw. i felt the button would bet flop bigger and re-raise the flop w/ an overpair/draw combo because the utg player was so loose/strange. based on my reads i probably should have re-popped the flop. when the turn comes i feel im winning but not by much so i bet because i think the button will check and free cards here are death.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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Something i'll add is that, in the game as described, I would raise this hand from the co (at least something), but I would seriously consider folding to the 3bet from the button. We no longer have the betting lead, and we are playing OOP not only with a hand we know isn't the best, but that isn't going to hit many flops. Playing big pots deep oop without the betting lead is very very rarely +ev.

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interesting, i sort of like this...but i feel the button becuase he is a passive player has defined his hand and playing against a defined hand is a great situation w/ any 4 cards no?

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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Fold preflop, as igg said hard to get the nuts, and u cant stack off with bottom set happily oterwise. + The hand leaves u in nasty spots like this where you have no cluw what to do. Esp this deep. The downside if being oversetted if u are 100-200bb deep live isnt that bad, and you can play your sets much more strongly.

Generally i need JJxx or bether to play for set, but I obvs play 8875, 9910J stuff too.

Turn is a bluff. You bet when the most obvs draw hits.

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seems like people here are obsessed w/ playing pots w/ only the nuts...is this because the online games have gotten so tough/tight? if you were to watch this game for an hour i think you would see that playing only for the nuts and not using situations and hand reading would cost you alot of money ...although it would save you alot of headaches as well.

EXAMPLE POT...13k got in on the flop, one player had aajk the other 3456 on a flop of Q44

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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When the button calls the flop I would put him a draw like 100%. I would toss AAragrag quickly here in his position. Furthermore, just because he 3bets pf, that shouldn't necessarily mean he has a high pair. With deep stacks it's better to 3bet good drawing hands than high pairs. That said, I would play it very slowly when the turn hits, because that is that card means the most likely draw for the button has hit. I would check and re-evaluate, probably c-f.

EDIT: I have assumed you're playing thinking opponents, if these live games are full of donkeys it makes things different ofc. However, I would still put BTN on a straight a lot so check turn.

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QFT, especially prior to the edit

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

One thing that I didn't catch because of the narrative form of the HH is that this is a 3-bet pot. If so, I think going for a check/raise on the flop is actually perfectly standard; it's not bad at all, and we can't read quite as much strength out of the C/R in front of us. I still think the turn lead's bad though.

Also, on the preflop play, it's not that you have to only play the nuts. I certainly don't do that online. I play a very aggro game and push a lot of slim edges. But when you play a hand like 5332 that regularly makes a lot 2nd nut straights and 3rd-best sets, I really don't think it can be played profitably.

And yes, I understand the difference between live and online play. I do open my game up a little bit live and play more hands, both because the players are worse, and just because it's so darn boring waiting 5 minutes until the next decision, but I still think 5332's going to get you in trouble way too much to be profitable.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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Something i'll add is that, in the game as described, I would raise this hand from the co (at least something), but I would seriously consider folding to the 3bet from the button. We no longer have the betting lead, and we are playing OOP not only with a hand we know isn't the best, but that isn't going to hit many flops. Playing big pots deep oop without the betting lead is very very rarely +ev.

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i would fold to the pf raise, and i think playing small pair hands deep and oop is generally bad, but i'm not sure the "betting lead" is all that valuable in those spots. if button and utg were both loose-aggressive, i'd call a button 3-bet in the middle with a lot of pretty speculative hands, expecting to have it bet and raised back to me a lot of times when I flop big.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

please discuss the game - when did it go and what do you think will be the schedule in the future? was there a catalyst or just a bunch of LA NL tards deciding PLO looks cool? God i'd liek to get in there.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

wall to wall tards. it goes in association w/ the bikes plo tournamnents. it wont last long imo.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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One thing that I didn't catch because of the narrative form of the HH is that this is a 3-bet pot. If so, I think going for a check/raise on the flop is actually perfectly standard; it's not bad at all, and we can't read quite as much strength out of the C/R in front of us. I still think the turn lead's bad though.

Also, on the preflop play, it's not that you have to only play the nuts. I certainly don't do that online. I play a very aggro game and push a lot of slim edges. But when you play a hand like 5332 that regularly makes a lot 2nd nut straights and 3rd-best sets, I really don't think it can be played profitably.

And yes, I understand the difference between live and online play. I do open my game up a little bit live and play more hands, both because the players are worse, and just because it's so darn boring waiting 5 minutes until the next decision, but I still think 5332's going to get you in trouble way too much to be profitable.

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in the situation described i wasnt really "playing" 2335 i was just playing position in a heads up pot and then got bushwacked by the button. i would like to hear more about whether you (and others) would fold to the rr after the utg calls. it seems to me im in an ok spot to win a decent pot on the flop if i flop good and can get it heads up against the pfr...do you think this situation is too infrequent to continue w/ the hand? this might be getting to player dependent and entering the "it depends" zone.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

if the button is really bad I call here with any 4 I raised with.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
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One thing that I didn't catch because of the narrative form of the HH is that this is a 3-bet pot. If so, I think going for a check/raise on the flop is actually perfectly standard; it's not bad at all, and we can't read quite as much strength out of the C/R in front of us. I still think the turn lead's bad though.

Also, on the preflop play, it's not that you have to only play the nuts. I certainly don't do that online. I play a very aggro game and push a lot of slim edges. But when you play a hand like 5332 that regularly makes a lot 2nd nut straights and 3rd-best sets, I really don't think it can be played profitably.

And yes, I understand the difference between live and online play. I do open my game up a little bit live and play more hands, both because the players are worse, and just because it's so darn boring waiting 5 minutes until the next decision, but I still think 5332's going to get you in trouble way too much to be profitable.

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in the situation described i wasnt really "playing" 2335 i was just playing position in a heads up pot and then got bushwacked by the button. i would like to hear more about whether you (and others) would fold to the rr after the utg calls. it seems to me im in an ok spot to win a decent pot on the flop if i flop good and can get it heads up against the pfr...do you think this situation is too infrequent to continue w/ the hand? this might be getting to player dependent and entering the "it depends" zone.

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If the SB raises and your in the BB, then you can "play position in a HU pot". As is, you're in the CO with both the button and the blinds to act behind you. If you think they're all folding over half the time, this is a lot tighter game than everyone seems to be intimating. The fact is button will call (or reraise) a lot and one of the blinds will usually stick around too. You'll be stuck playing 5332 very deep in a multiway pot.

I will say that I'm not raise/folding anything here though. This deep, the reraise doesn't do much to change the play at all; it just raises the stakes a little.

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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wall to wall tards. it goes in association w/ the bikes plo tournamnents. it wont last long imo.

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If it's wall to wall tards, I am playing any 4 that's remotedly related as long as they aren't incestuous (internal 3 of a kind for example)

Re: new live 5-5 plo game at bike...big hand
 

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wall to wall tards. it goes in association w/ the bikes plo tournamnents. it wont last long imo.

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If it's wall to wall tards, I am playing any 4 that's remotedly related as long as they aren't incestuous (internal 3 of a kind for example)

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I'd say the complete opposite actually, but that could depend on the definition of a tard.