KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

i'm in the SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

BB: seems to have been floating me alot. we've been in alot of pots together and i don't know if he keeps coldcalling my raises because he doesn't trust me or what. over the small sample to this point he seems loose and mostly passive(but has made one or two plays).


button has played tight/passively, but i have no significant sample. we just had a sb vs. bb runin where he open raised, i called, called a flop bet, raised the turn and fired the river when i was bluffing. he folded the river so i assume he was on a flush or straight draw as the board had both.

button open limps, i raise, both bb and button call.

Flop(6sb): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

i bet, they both call.

Turn(4bb): K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

i'm first to act, what's up?

any thoughts on the play of the prior streets?

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

james live or online?

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

actually i guess it doesn't matter a lot so far. i like your play so far and i bet the turn.

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

Bet/fold?

I think we have the best hand too often to just check/fold (even though folding is ok if the button bets) However, I don't wish to give a free card here.

Check/calling doesn't feel right against non-aggressive opponents.

If the action goes something like hero bet, BB call, button raise we are getting 8:1 to call (minus rake) and probably 9:1 if BB comes along and that's getting awfully close to the odds we need to draw. But I don't think that is quite enough odds to continue considering that one might have a big hand and who knows how live our KQ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is and I really don't want to put in multiple bets on the turn with second pair against passive types.

I might just have limped preflop. Against random donks it's an easy raise of course but I'm not sure how good it is against a tight player. Depends really on how tight he is. If he is only playing approximately 77+ and A9+ or something there then I'm definately limping but if his range is closer to what a good players steal range is and includes stuff like suited connectors and suited Qs then I like the raise a lot more.

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

:Grunch:

Your options:

C/R: Not a good option. Giving a free card would be terrible, and these two, given that the BB is the BB and the button so powerfully open-limped OTB, could check through the turn. Plus I'm assuming this is live.

C/C: Still bad. The free card problem again. Doesn't seem like the spot to induce a bet from a worse hand.

So, betting is good.

Odds are we have the best hand. Is the BB or button aggressive enough to raise KT on the turn? Would they semi-bluff raise the flush draw? You've characterized them both as passive, so the answer to these questions is probably no. Would they wait for the turn to pop an A? Maybe.

Then again, they may think you've been making moves on them (since you have), and might choose to play back here. Again, if this is live, this may be less likely.

I think the biggest problem here is that either villain may be in calldown mode with A-rag.

You should bet. I would have to see how BB and Btn respond before I'd decide to call or fold to a raise.

Need more info to evaluate river action.

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

Got to bet here. Button is the biggest concerns, but between the chance of having the best hand and sucking out I can't see folding.

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

okay, i agree this(for me anyway) is a pretty standard turn bet.

having 2 opponents in a smallish pot, i wondered if checking might have some merit(yes, even with these opponents).

look at what i've done in this hand. i've raised pf from the worst position, the SB, and proceeded to fire on a Ahigh flop and get called in two places. when the King turns, don't you guys think it makes it pretty hard for a worse hand to call?

on this board, when i bet this turn and get called, a good chunk of my EV from worse hands is going to come from those on the flush draw. having one(or both) of these opponents on that exact draw is actually going to be a minority of the time. if that's the case, a large amount of the time i bet either they both fold or i bet and get checkraised/called by a better hand.

it's one of those situations that pretty much all options suck, so we just need to pick the best one and betting seems to be it. BUT, a freecard doesn't kill us because the pot's not that big. it's not like another overcard can come to hurt us. and as i stated earlier with an Ace and King on that board, it makes it tough for a worse made hand(pairs, specifically) to call. plus, there's a chance we're behind anyway. i've stated these guys were relatively passive, but i've also stated they are small samples so in the grand scheme of things mostly unknown. this is an online game and generally, typical internet opponents will bet a pretty big range when checked to(even relatively passive ones). this might have the effect of widening the range(or ranges) of their hands that might put a big bet in on the turn versus me just betting.

i'm not saying checking is best, but i think we might have something to at least consider. it appears to be(and very well could be) an autobet, but at least we have something to talk about. or maybe not. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
when the King turns, don't you guys think it makes it pretty hard for a worse hand to call?



[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right?

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when the King turns, don't you guys think it makes it pretty hard for a worse hand to call?



[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

meh. i don't know. this is a pretty worthless post, i guess. probably instigated by boredom more than anything else. what i feel like is i've reached a point where i've posted about so much it's hard to come up with new situations. for some reason i thought there could be some discussion about the turn play. here, i know the "standard" is to bet, but in the current online environment i wonder if we need to reevaluate some of our "standard" plays.

Re: KQo SB: Flop and Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
...here, i know the "standard" is to bet, but in the current online environment i wonder if we need to reevaluate some of our "standard" plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not against players you've identified as "passive," especially when the board has both flush and straight possibilities.