44 Set in the SB
 

8/16 live. Villain is MP. She is playing a lot of hands and ColdCalling a lot raises. She is currently on a bit of a rush. Her PF raising range is fairly wide. She bets lot so flops with or without a piece.

One EP(bad loose player)limps, MP raises, 3 callers to Hero in the SB with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] who calls, BB calls. 7 ways.

(13.5 SBs) Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Hero Checks, Checked to MP who bets, 2 LP callers, Hero raises, Folded to MP who 3 bets, folded to Hero who 4 bets(HU now), MP 5 bets, Hero???

Other questions: My SB call here okay with this many people coldcalling? I thought it would be

My planned C/R on the flop cool as well or just better to lead out and hope she raises so I can get a 3 bet in?

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

im bumping this for ever, your crushing a ton of her range, and only behind to 2 possible hands. if shes got Q-Q, K-K here, im losing alot of chips. i play this hand exactly this way. NH

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

The SB coldcall here looks fine with 3 cold callers already in and very little chance of a 3 bet.

I'm not sure I 4 bet the flop here since it is HU at this point. I might call 3 and lead the turn.

I think the CR on the flop is fine, if you are pretty sure she will bet almost any flop.

How aggressive is she post flop? Would she three bet AK here? Would she 3 bet KQ? From the description it sounds like she probably would, and you will be ahead substantially more than half the time. If she is only 3 betting with 2 pair or better, then it is much closer.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

1) Putting your Villian on a hand:

While your Villian plays a lot and cold calls a lot, those facts say nothing about her raise range. We played Tuesday with people who raised NOTHING PF but almost played ATC. Welcome to HG. Would she raise KQo the way we do? Probably not. Look at your experience with her. Is she an AQ+ person, or does she get weird on her raises from time to time?

2) More importantly, you know that you are (probably) WAY ahead with your flopped set, so the issue is which line builds the biggest pot?

a) Your line: c/r the flop.
b) c/c the flop planning to c/r the turn, or
c) bet out the flop.

I like to bet out my stealth bombs. No way does your Villian put me on a set when it gets to her. I think this also builds a pot right away when I force the players between me and MP to call right away. When MP raises, people are less afraid of her raises and she'll get more action. Now I've got to decide. Wait for the turn or 3 bet? With two pictures on the board I would force the issue. 3 bet. With only one piece of paint I would lay back and c/r the turn. If she caps that tells me to put it into call down mode, but I might still bet out the river.

Line c = bet out and keep going. If capped, c/c the turn. Bet out on the river/call.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

call his raise then lead the turn. if villian raises us on the turn we should 3-bet basically any turn card given how we are ahead of his range.

preflop: good. there is going to be a least a five-way pot when the action gets to you. As we all know small pp's love multi-way action.

i like the flop check-raise in this spot. you're able to trap more people for two bets in this particular pot.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

I was fairly sure she was going to lead the flop here.

Fuzz, I think at some point if she keeps reraising me I have to figure she has QQ or KK and at how many bets do I assume that? I just wonder if I should have forgone the 4th bet on the small bet street and led out on the turn with hopes of at least getting a 3 bet in, being a bigger bet street. I almost like mikeca's line the best now I think. To add, like Yak said, which line gets us the most here when we are likely ahead? Hard to say exactly. I'll post the rest of the hand a but later and let you know what I did.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

against the type of player you described in the OP, i find it hard not closing the betting with this hand. i dont know, i might be wrong. what is your image here, or is she even capable of noticing. also, shes on a rush, so she might be feeling invincible,maybe swept up with here recent fortunes so shes throwing here chips around even more liberally than she normally( wich,from OP ,shes already overbetting here hands absurdly) again, i might be wrong

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

pf call good.
Flop c/r, nice. You'd bet/3bet if that would trap more calls, but it looks like most of the field is in late position. There's a near zero chance this flop is getting checked thru.

Not sure if I like the 4-bet because your range just closed up to two pair+ and maybe AK. You might get more action from weaker hands by calling the 3-bet and leading the turn.

But whatever... don't fold.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

I think her perception of me was tight and only coming in with a good hand. I also don't think she was the type to get this bet crazy with just top pair like an AK or AQ hand.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

yea, i think your right. her 5 bet narrows it down.i still think your about even here though. im still leading any turn without a king or queen though.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

* grunch *

I think preflop is pretty easy call for set purposes with this many players.

On flop I too go for the check raise since my position to the preflop raiser is likely to trap lottsa players, and it sounds like villain is more opt to bet than check (even with this many opponents). But even if villain doesn't bet, hopefully someone else will bet their top pair so I can maybe get in a check/raise that way. If it didn't get heads up right away I would continue raising. But now that it's heads up right away, do we potentially get more value by simply calling and then leading the turn hoping to 3bet then? I sometimes just keep autoraising the flop in this case when I should be thinking of getting the maximum...

Boy, villain sure likes her hand; set over set is just destined to lose a lotta bets I guess...

GcluelessnoobG

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

Okay, so good or bad, I just called the 5 bet by her on the flop. She then says, "Hmmmm. okay". So she figures that her hand is good since I didn't go a 6th bet. So far so good. The turn comes off the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] I lead out, She says "Wow you bet into that?" She just calls now. River comes the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I bet again and she just calls. She looks perplexed & has no idea what I have at this point since I bet into her on the turn and the river. It really threw her off I think. I show my set and she tables QKo. She says "Wow, I didn't put you on that at all in the small blind"

With her little speech there after I just call the 5 bet on the flop, I wonder if it would have been likely to get another C/R in on the turn? Not really sure. It would have sucked to have it check through though on the turn and miss a bet so I didn't attempt it. That and I was hoping to get a 3rd bet in on the turn by leading out. But oh well, UPS.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

A lot of players who don't have the nuts or near nuts will slip into check-call mode if you do something that doesn't make sense, such as leading at a card that shouldn't help you. It's a tendency that makes a bet-fold line in certain situations work.

Against this particular player, it feels like her range based on the flop is KQ/QQ/KK. She doesn't sound like the sort to jam here with JT or AK. Would she with AA? Another question that you should ask yourself is if she is the sort who jams the flop with a set or slows down in order to maximize getting another bet in a bigger street.

Since her failure to raise the turn makes it look like she has KQ, I think that a possible play that you may have missed is going for the check-raise on the river.

You asked about how far you should go before slowing down. I think that The Mathematics of Poker suggested that 4-5 bets was enough with the second nuts vs a game theoretical opponent, but the exploitative strategy against a non-optimal opponent is different and you're not on the end here.

P.S. Where was this played? I think that all the places I have played allowed unlimited raising in heads-up pots only on streets that begin heads up.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

HG

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

At Bay 101, the caps comes off in any betting round, once only 2 players in it. Don't need to start a round heads up.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
With her little speech there after I just call the 5 bet on the flop, I wonder if it would have been likely to get another C/R in on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

When someone is putting in that much action on the flop, and you just call the last bet, they'll usually bet the turn when checked to.

When you bet into her, that says you have a hand and aren't drawing, but are likely afraid that she is. Which could slow her down because that's why they'd likely bet out in your spot. You're betting into a flop 5 bettor. After 5 bets, it's highly unlikely she's drawing. What's she going to put you on at that point?

Although you made out pretty good on this one, you left some of the meat in the water.

b

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

Def agree with you there B. That is why I can't help but wonder if I should have gone for the turn C/R.

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

[ QUOTE ]
Def agree with you there B. That is why I can't help but wonder if I should have gone for the turn C/R.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say if I just called the last bet on the flop, I'm c/r'ing the turn here almost all the time. If they raise that, then I'm calling down.(player depending, obviously)

Unless certain cards hit that might kill my action. Like an A(or a 3rd flush card if the flop was 2-tone). Then I might bet out.

C/r'ing the turn does a couple possible things. One is if you get 3 bet, you can then call it out as that 3 bet is pretty strong given the action up to that point. You've basically turned your hand over at that point and they're still firing. If you bet out and get raised, then you'd be inclined to 3 bet(I would. The range is still wider when they just raise). Well, if they 4 bet that you're really going to hate it. The most you'd really want to see go in on the turn, against most opponents, is 3 bets. But usually on that 3rd bet, when they put it in, you're in calling mode. When you put it in, you're hoping for no 4 bet.

Not sure if I explained that well. But the turn c/r helps protect you a little when behind.

b

Re: 44 Set in the SB
 

You flop line is a function of how many callers you can get trapped for 2-bets. Normally the PFR is not going to 3-bet in a live game, and at these limits, they might call two-anyway.

Now C/R the turn.