The house takes all the money.
 

Cash game rake, tournament fees, sngs fees etc are way too much money. $100 an hour + comes off the table in a cash game. 10% of EVERY prize pool goes to the house in tournaments and sit n gos. Its ridiculous. There is no doubt 8 out of 10 players lose in the long run.

Examining the rake/fees closely:

Low limit cash game. $100 an hour+ comes off the table or more. Say in a 10 hour period there is $4000 on the table. In 10 hours the house has 25% of the money, $1000. And this in just one day. Playing day in day out, the house gets allllll they money.

$100 Sit n go. 10% fee, 9 handed, $990 total $90 for the house. $900 left for the players. The best players are only avg $10 a sng profit these days, while the house took $90 for itself almost all of which is profit. And the majority of the players in these sngs are losing $10 per sng. THE HOUSE GETS ALLL THE MONEY.

$100 Heads up SNG. Each players pays $5 to the house. You are risking $105 to win $95. 5% disadvantage. Those odds are as bad as a roulette wheel.

$100+20 Multi-table Tournament = 17% of the prize pool to the house. Its a joke.

Through this silly card game they are able siphon away massive amounts of money from the average person. It's [censored].

Discuss.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]


$100 Heads SNG. Each players pays $5 to the house. You are risking $105 to win $95. 5% disadvantage.

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you seriously serious?

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

i stop playing live because of the rake/tip/food/gas/wait. Nobody can make a living play 1/2nl or less.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

I am not a communist. They should obviously be compensated for providing us with this service, but what they do charge is ABSURD. And I dont want to hear its not that bad because its on a per use basis. Or this is what the market bears. We all idiots for playing.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

IN the game i play i come off as an ass when i tip 2 bucks for a 500 dollar pot cause all the other idiots tip like 2 bucks when they chop a hand.

Winning players actually get around 55% of the money.
 

"Discuss."

Discuss what ? That you really are an idiot and do not understand the economics of poker in the slightest.

As a threshold matter, IF a site is well run and has no house players, it yields back a GROSS return of about 45% of the deposits (not factoring in rakeback), so clearly, the House does NOT get all the money.

Keep in mind that 45% or so is GROSS, not net.

Where does the other 55% go ? Uhmmm, maybe to players who are cashing out ? How about an accurate headline like: Winning Players get most of the money !!!!

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am not a communist. They should obviously be compensated for providing us with this service, but what they do charge is ABSURD. And I dont want to hear its not that bad because its on a per use basis. Or this is what the market bears. We all idiots for playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I pay $75 plus for a lift ticket at Vail. Alternative: Walk up the hill. Conclusion: I will pay the dough (just too damn slippery - that hill!)

You pay 10% profit to a casino or poker site. Alternative: Invite 30,000 people from all over the world to play at your house 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Conclusion: Online poker is very convenient - thus you pay (besides, poker players are smelly (the French) and they will eat everything in your fridge -(the Hungarians and or Germans (same thing?) !)

[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

Bill Gates will not pay $10 for valet parking. He considers it bad value.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

I'm making over 350$ an hour playing this game. What the house charges is not under my control as they are based in a country who's name I cannot prounounce. I could spend a half an hour whining about it, or I could make 175$.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bill Gates will not pay $10 for valet parking. He considers it bad value.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is. Park it yourself and get a good walk in before sitting on your aks all night.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bill Gates will not pay $10 for valet parking. He considers it bad value.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is. Park it yourself and get a good walk in before sitting on your aks all night.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is less than one billionth of your net worth, if you refuse it then I would consider it a more than stingy decision.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i stop playing live because of the rake/tip/food/gas/wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

The rake and tips are expenses. Same as if you rented a storefront or an office. You buy food and gas whether you drive to an office or a casino.

Although there is an old guy at the Mirage who brings his own bag lunch everyday. I guess he doesn't like getting a free buffet comp everyday [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

5% rake in a SNG?

Try 23% for 120 SNG at Foxwoods, WORST % ever. Almost unbeatable

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

I'm gonna take a guess that OP is in the 8/10 category?

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

having to pay taxes on poker'winning is more (more) sick than having to pay a rake, vig, etc.

- jpp

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

Where are all these people coming from?

I'd say that the new posters should have to meet some sort of criteria, but I don't even think some of the mods could meet it.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

It will all be over soon..

The casual/bad players realize they can't win. The games will dry up and the 'good' players who bottom feed will start to lose..
I cant wait!

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
having to pay taxes on poker'winning is more (more) sick than having to pay a rake, vig, etc.

- jpp

[/ QUOTE ]

Only getting taxed on profits>>>>>>>>getting taxed always. Also I guarantee you pay multiple times more in rake.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

Bob,accountant, weekly pay: $500. Joe, electrician, weekly pay $400. Sarah, waitress, weekly pay: $350. Dave, mechanic, weekly pay $450. Mike, hs math teacher, weekely pay: $500
Susan, mcdonalds, weekly pay: $200.

They all play 15 hours of online poker every week for a total of about 60 hours per month of online poker.
They play cash games, where every pot is raked $3 X 50 hands an hour. So they are paying $15 an hour X 60 hours per month , which means they are paying $900 a month in poker rake. Considering what the average person makes, it's beyond me how 90% of the players dont lose in the long run.
ONLINE POKER IS THE EQUIVALENT OF FINANCIAL GENOCIDE AGAINST THE MASSES. LOL I'm telling it straight, I swear.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,accountant, weekly pay: $500. Joe, electrician, weekly pay $400. Sarah, waitress, weekly pay: $350. Dave, mechanic, weekly pay $450. Mike, hs math teacher, weekely pay: $500
Susan, mcdonalds, weekly pay: $200.

They all play 15 hours of online poker every week for a total of about 60 hours per month of online poker.
They play cash games, where every pot is raked $3 X 50 hands an hour. So they are paying $15 an hour X 60 hours per month , which means they are paying $900 a month in poker rake. Considering what the average person makes, it's beyond me how 90% of the players dont lose in the long run.
ONLINE POKER IS THE EQUIVALENT OF FINANCIAL GENOCIDE AGAINST THE MASSES. LOL I'm telling it straight, I swear.

[/ QUOTE ]

okay now 100% sure this was a level. well done sir.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

Yeah, if this isn't a level than this guy needs to find his way back to p5's.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

That is why I dont play poker for a living, its for degens.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cash game rake, tournament fees, sngs fees etc are way too much money. $100 an hour + comes off the table in a cash game. 10% of EVERY prize pool goes to the house in tournaments and sit n gos. Its ridiculous. There is no doubt 8 out of 10 players lose in the long run.

Examining the rake/fees closely:

Low limit cash game. $100 an hour+ comes off the table or more. Say in a 10 hour period there is $4000 on the table. In 10 hours the house has 25% of the money, $1000. And this in just one day. Playing day in day out, the house gets allllll they money.

$100 Sit n go. 10% fee, 9 handed, $990 total $90 for the house. $900 left for the players. The best players are only avg $10 a sng profit these days, while the house took $90 for itself almost all of which is profit. And the majority of the players in these sngs are losing $10 per sng. THE HOUSE GETS ALLL THE MONEY.

$100 Heads up SNG. Each players pays $5 to the house. You are risking $105 to win $95. 5% disadvantage. Those odds are as bad as a roulette wheel.

$100+20 Multi-table Tournament = 17% of the prize pool to the house. Its a joke.

Through this silly card game they are able siphon away massive amounts of money from the average person. It's [censored].

Discuss.

[/ QUOTE ]i agree

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,accountant, weekly pay: $500. Joe, electrician, weekly pay $400. Sarah, waitress, weekly pay: $350. Dave, mechanic, weekly pay $450. Mike, hs math teacher, weekely pay: $500
Susan, mcdonalds, weekly pay: $200.

They all play 15 hours of online poker every week for a total of about 60 hours per month of online poker.
They play cash games, where every pot is raked $3 X 50 hands an hour. So they are paying $15 an hour X 60 hours per month , which means they are paying $900 a month in poker rake. Considering what the average person makes, it's beyond me how 90% of the players dont lose in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

people who make $500 a week (or less) dont play nearly that much, or for stakes where it is max raked. playing $25NL, you get raked maybe a buck or two an hour per table.

losing isnt that bad in moderation if it provides entertainment.

losers at midstakes+ are either wealthy, or degenerates.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,accountant, weekly pay: $500. Joe, electrician, weekly pay $400. Sarah, waitress, weekly pay: $350. Dave, mechanic, weekly pay $450. Mike, hs math teacher, weekely pay: $500
Susan, mcdonalds, weekly pay: $200.

They all play 15 hours of online poker every week for a total of about 60 hours per month of online poker.
They play cash games, where every pot is raked $3 X 50 hands an hour. So they are paying $15 an hour X 60 hours per month , which means they are paying $900 a month in poker rake. Considering what the average person makes, it's beyond me how 90% of the players dont lose in the long run.
ONLINE POKER IS THE EQUIVALENT OF FINANCIAL GENOCIDE AGAINST THE MASSES. LOL I'm telling it straight, I swear.

[/ QUOTE ]


So...what do you want us to do about it?

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

"So...what do you want us to do about it?"

Come up with a plan for us to create a new site that is owned by a bunch of young wealthy poker players, we all put up money for it. And we promote it like crazy. A tons of young pros, 2+2ers, everyone wearing T-shirts at all the big telivised tournaments, in cardrooms around the country etc.

Or maybe get a bunch of rich young pros to contact world poker exchange to buy a piece of it and put up $$ for new software, and then be the posters boys for it.

Pokerstars, Full Tilt, Ultimate Bet etc. will never compete on rake. Lets just say there yearly profits are $300million with $3 per pot rake. If you cut it to $2, profits are down to $200, $1 profits are down to $100 million etc. Theyll never compete on rake.

The Poker Players Alliance should lobby for lower rake.
We are all being robbed blind, its UNBELIEVABLY OBVIOUS THE HOUSE TAKES ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL THE MONEY. WHAT THE MARKET IS BEARING IS ABSURD, CRAZY, RIDICULOUS. Do you guys see how capitalism works? 100,000 people who make between $35,000 -$50,000 are having huge amounts of their hard earned money gobbled up by the few owners of these sites. Literally, $10,000,000,000 from 1,000,000 people who make <50k is now in the bank accounts of Chris Ferguson, Howard Lederer, Isai Scheinberg(pokerstars owners), Ben-Yitzhak family(888.com)Ruth Parasol(Party Poker). You got 10s of thousands of people paying/ losing thousands and thousands of dollars a year in rake. It's money for nothing. This is the least legit product ever. NAME ONE OTHER BUSINESS THAT GETS $2000 a MONTH FROM THE AVERAGE PERSON?????????? YOU CANT DO IT. IF THESE SITES HAD A FEW MILLION CUSTOMERS THEYD
BE THE MOST PROFITABLE BUSINESSES IN THE WORLD. $10 an hour, every hour, indefinitely to play cards against other people is nuts. It's [censored]. Were being robbed blind, WAKE UP. Its so obvious its ridiculous and most of you think im wrong or an idiot. Please wake up.

It's time for people to start complaining and do something about it. Casual poker players are paying $10,000+ a year to
play cards, because this is their hobby. The amount of money poker players pay to play poker is WRONG. It's morally wrong.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

OP is right. It was incredible to watch what 2+2 was capable of when the Absoloute superuser fraud became known.

If they put the same energy into a project like the one you suggest, there would be a lot of money to save for all of us.

+ If I take a look at the "Rake" column in Pokertracker it makes me go sick.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

I agree that the rake can go lower.
The answer is not in starting new sites but in putting pressure on the existing sites to offer much higher rakebacks.

They wont lose much dough by doing this because there are too many fools that play without rakeback and don`t care about it + a good number of players that have never heard the term and don`t even know what it is.

And anyone who likes to defend the online rake by comparing it to live play rake should try to figure out the difference (I know this might be hard for some) between the costs of maintaining a real world and a virtual one.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

There is some truth to what the OP is saying. BUT, this isn't the old days of poker where operators were taking 10% rake and busting everyone. Yeah 5% is pretty bad, BUT again, that is in full swing up to 5/10, and I'm talking LHE. Playing less than 1/2NL is the same killer. I have rakeback like a lot of people, but it's also like a rebate for an item you buy. You pay $200 for a nice cell phone with a rebate of $50 that takes 6-8 weeks. Why not just sell me the effen phone for $150 now? Again, there are many people who don't have rakeback, just like people who don't follow through with the rebate.

Seriously though, poker rake is similar to the old pyramid system. Sooner or later the whole world will go bust. The main difference is the money, and the less than avg. skilled poker players that exist in this world. This means, if it continuously gets fueled, the better players not only beat the current rake, but make good money. The % is still high, but not high enough where the better players can't win. It's pretty much a proven fact.

If someone can prove this theory wrong then I will quit the game.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

Yes, this is a fine post with good points. So why does no one play on WSEX? Why are you not playing there? People are dumb, the sites get rich, nothing will change. GG.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]


Pokerstars, Full Tilt, Ultimate Bet etc. will never compete on rake. Lets just say there yearly profits are $300million with $3 per pot rake. If you cut it to $2, profits are down to $200, $1 profits are down to $100 million etc. Theyll never compete on rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not create a $4 per pot site. Actually treat people like human beings. Some flowery BS marketing about how we are the best of the best. Blah, blah, blah. We'll all be RICH!

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's time for people to start complaining and do something about it. Casual poker players are paying $10,000+ a year to
play cards, because this is their hobby. The amount of money poker players pay to play poker is WRONG. It's morally wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tuff Fish gimmick account?

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, this is a fine post with good points. So why does no one play on WSEX? Why are you not playing there? People are dumb, the sites get rich, nothing will change. GG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some very knowledgable people here have mentioned why. Marketing is one, player pool is another, competition as a result of a small player pool is a killer. You need a lot of less skilled players or you just won't win much, or not at all.

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

I rather play at pokerstars and pay the rake than play at WPX, because at WPX there are no fish. Fish don't care if the rake is 0%, 10% or 50%. They lose money anyway. Only winning players do care.

I pay the rake for smooth software, a timebank and the fishpond that pokerstars provides by advertising their site.
You can consider the rake as a fee for a service.

A 2+2 pokersite? "Come play where the sharks are going to eat you alive".

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

When did they start taking a rake?

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

internet poker is nowhere near the cannibal that live casino crook operated poker is

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I rather play at pokerstars and pay the rake than play at WPX, because at WPX there are no fish. Fish don't care if the rake is 0%, 10% or 50%. They lose money anyway. Only winning players do care.

I pay the rake for smooth software, a timebank and the fishpond that pokerstars provides by advertising their site.
You can consider the rake as a fee for a service.

A 2+2 pokersite? "Come play where the sharks are going to eat you alive".

[/ QUOTE ]
No! The "Chat and play with the pros" campaign worked as well. Why not advertise "Chat and play with the real pros".

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
"So...what do you want us to do about it?"

Come up with a plan for us to create a new site that is owned by a bunch of young wealthy poker players, we all put up money for it. And we promote it like crazy. A tons of young pros, 2+2ers, everyone wearing T-shirts at all the big telivised tournaments, in cardrooms around the country etc.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah! And then for the service we are providing we can take a small bit out of ever pot...

Re: The house takes all the money.
 

[ QUOTE ]
internet poker is nowhere near the cannibal that live casino crook operated poker is

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

In Holland Casino, the group of casinos that have the monopoly on live poker for money in the Netherlands, rake is 10% in the lower stakes games, 5% in the higher stakes games.

Rake caps of €15 and €20 ($21/$28)

Robbers!