40/80 QQ hand
 

Strange 40 game with some really loose-passives, some super weak-tights, and a couple spazzy LAGs. Not sure what my image is because the only hand I've shown down is KK after 3-betting a big field PF and betting the whole way to take the pot. I've lost a few hands at showdown that I mucked face down.

I open QQ in the CO. Both blinds call. BB is fairly weak-tight, and SB is somewhat loose preflop and fairly aggressive although not when you'd expect. I wish I could state an eloquent read on him but at this point in the session (90 minutes?) I just hadn't played enough hands to figure him out. 40s, middle easternish, ball cap, probably has a lot of experience.

Flop comes K33. Checked to me, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.
Turn 9. SB donks, and I... ?

Also, are we always betting this flop? What are the merits of checking behind here?

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

old persian guy = showdown. his hand looks like a K or a 3. it also looks like 65o.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

i don't see any merit to checking behind unless you're balancing it with checking behind other types of hands OR if these blinds are a special brand of retarded and you know they will bluff stupidly if you check behind. I personally think that even the worst players will know something is up when you check behind that flop and refrain from putting in money badly on the turn or river.

Definitely call the turn, call the river. never fold in this spot. He could seriously have anything, i think you'll see a hand like A9 or trips more often than Kx.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

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Thats what I would do. At the same time it makes me wonder what hands are within his range that contain 2 clubs that he calls on the flop. Ac9c+? What else?

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

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random turn donkers also tend to donk rivers. i prefer calling down.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

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Thats what I would do...

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Why? This is a horrible spot for a free SD raise. I don't want to sound like a dick and say "DUCY" but I really do want you to think it out.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

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don't think i've ever disagreed w/ a DD strategy post but I don't like a free sd raise here. You're stopping him from bluffing the river and risking a bluff 3bet with say nut flush draw A9

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

call down always and forever.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

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don't think i've ever disagreed w/ a DD strategy post but I don't like a free sd raise here. You're stopping him from bluffing the river and risking a bluff 3bet with say nut flush draw A9

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

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random turn donkers also tend to donk rivers. i prefer calling down.

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yeah. there is nothing more annoying than doing a FSD raise on the turn, and having the guy barrel the river.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.

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I don't think so.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

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don't think i've ever disagreed w/ a DD strategy post but I don't like a free sd raise here. You're stopping him from bluffing the river and risking a bluff 3bet with say nut flush draw A9

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.

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No I meant the turn. I am generally against most FSDRs for good reasons, but this seems like one of the best places. Live players don't follow through on the river as often as online donk bluffers do, so there is a decent chance he just check/folds his flush draw on the river (because what the heck did we call him with on the turn). On the other hand, we do risk the bluff 3 bet but I again think this is a very rare play to see in a 40 live game. Another downside is we don't fold out any better hands, which sometimes helps a decision for a FSDR if there is a chance to successfully bluff some part of their range. I definitely don't think its crystal clear one way or the other, just that there is merit in considering FSDRing here, as many of the variables seem ideal.

Also given PJ's probable image I think this play improves in value because his turn raise is really strong and I don't think he'll get screwed with by a bluff 3 bet as often as some (me) would.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

Bet the flop.

SB sounds like the type to bet out if he hits a 9 and would c/r a better hand. I think you have to at least call and raise also sounds good given the description of the villian. If he's especially tricky then just follow the safe route and call.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

this seems like one of the worst places to fsdr bc i think a lot of our value calling down is coming from random retardo drawing dead donks and not A9 or small pocket pairs.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

ya i cd. while he might betting his fd, he might also be betting his pp so you can't check behind or so you might fold out of confusion and because he knows he can safely fold to a raise. so calling down gains an extra bet in that case.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I would do...

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Why? This is a horrible spot for a free SD raise. I don't want to sound like a dick and say "DUCY" but I really do want you to think it out.

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I actually thought some more about this hand and I was fully prepared to argue that a turn FSD was the best option if the board is two suited on the turn. As I started typing it out including weighing his hand range I realized I was wrong. I was weighing the small pair and flush draw range too heavily in my mind when I replied, that was an error IMHO.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

Just call and give off folding the river tells, then call obviously.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I would do...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? This is a horrible spot for a free SD raise. I don't want to sound like a dick and say "DUCY" but I really do want you to think it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually thought some more about this hand and I was fully prepared to argue that a turn FSD was the best option if the board is two suited on the turn. As I started typing it out including weighing his hand range I realized I was wrong. I was weighing the small pair and flush draw range too heavily in my mind when I replied, that was an error IMHO.

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Well, the crux of the issue is what happens when he has a bluff and what happens when he has a draw. I think the turn donk is usually a result of some type of improvement on the turn which makes a FD very likely. While nobody has been in this spot so many times we know for sure, I disagree with Deathdonkey when he says that live players will often check/fold missed FD on the river. I think random 40s middle easternish guy who donks the turn when a 4 flush hits will usually barrel off on the river.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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Strange 40 game with some really loose-passives, some super weak-tights, and a couple spazzy LAGs. Not sure what my image is because the only hand I've shown down is KK after 3-betting a big field PF and betting the whole way to take the pot. I've lost a few hands at showdown that I mucked face down.

I open QQ in the CO. Both blinds call. BB is fairly weak-tight, and SB is somewhat loose preflop and fairly aggressive although not when you'd expect. I wish I could state an eloquent read on him but at this point in the session (90 minutes?) I just hadn't played enough hands to figure him out. 40s, middle easternish, ball cap, probably has a lot of experience.

Flop comes K33. Checked to me, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.
Turn 9. SB donks, and I... ?

Also, are we always betting this flop? What are the merits of checking behind here?

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I think the best line is to call the turn and probably fold the river if a club comes.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

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call down always and forever.

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Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

If this guy is experienced, and aggro he is going to realize that this board is highly contestable vs your likely holdings. He isn't wrong. It just so happens that you have one of the better hands in your range.

If you think he is likely to bluff the river, then you should just call. I don't worry too much about giving 3 outers a free card in smallish pots.

If you had a slightly different read an argument might be made for folding certain rivers, like an ace, J, or T, because those cards would appear to improve your turn calling range and thus give him a bad price on a bluff.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

If the turn brought a flush draw raising the turn would be the best move.

Re: 40/80 QQ hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Strange 40 game with some really loose-passives, some super weak-tights, and a couple spazzy LAGs. Not sure what my image is because the only hand I've shown down is KK after 3-betting a big field PF and betting the whole way to take the pot. I've lost a few hands at showdown that I mucked face down.

I open QQ in the CO. Both blinds call. BB is fairly weak-tight, and SB is somewhat loose preflop and fairly aggressive although not when you'd expect. I wish I could state an eloquent read on him but at this point in the session (90 minutes?) I just hadn't played enough hands to figure him out. 40s, middle easternish, ball cap, probably has a lot of experience.

Flop comes K33. Checked to me, I bet, SB calls, BB folds.
Turn 9. SB donks, and I... ?

Also, are we always betting this flop? What are the merits of checking behind here?

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The merits are simple. Nobody is folding if they have a king or a 3. But if you check you may induce bluffs, or induce bets out of lesser paired hands and draws.

That's not to say that it is better than betting, just that it has merits. Betting gets rid of weak draws that might beat you when you have the best hand, or makes them pay to try.